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Carburation problems

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I've done about 800 miles on my Navigator, runs well enough except for one thing, tick over speed is too high.
It ticks over at around 1800 rpm, far to high.
I've tried to adjust the speed, monobloc carb.   The carb doesn't respond to the air screw as it should.  Screwed right in the engine slows down, lift the slide with the throttle stop to speed up.  Tick over is erratic and throttle response is hesitant.
Wind air screw out,  ~5 turns, engine speeds up then slows.  Lowering the slide with the throttle stop makes no difference, even with the slide completely closed, lowest possible position with throttle stop not touching the slide, the tickover is still too high.  As before response is hesitant until the cut away comes in to play.
Best setting for throttle response is with air screw ~2 turns out, slide completely closed, tickover far too high.  But the engine runs well, carburation is good at anything above the high speed tickover, the engine pulls well.
Closing the choke at idle makes no difference, until the throttle is opened to pull away, then the engine coughs and splutters as it should with a warmed up engine. 
This strongly suggests no air leak, the slide is not hanging on the cable, plenty of free play.  All the right jets and needle/needle position.
I've tried 3 different carburettors, all behave the same.  Before rebuilding the engine tickover was erratic but I didn't ride it much so left alone thinking I'll sort this when I've rebuilt the engine.
I'm at a loss as to what is wrong so its over to you guys, what do you think?
 

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John, 
On a Navigator many years ago a section of the rh gasket. Head to inlet manifold. Broke and got sucked in. 
Fast tickover etc. 
The flat face of the inlet manifold has to mate with two flat faces on two separate cylinder heads which may, or may not, be co-planar. You will understand. Tolerances, hole clearances, etc. 
Worth checking and consider a bit of Hylomar? 

Peter

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I'm inclined to think that an air leak is not the problem.  Carburation seems spot on except for tickover.  Never the less I'll check for leaks, again.

Peter, the joint faces for the manifold on the head are very close to being co-planar, within a few thou.  The thick gaskets seem able to cope with that.  I'll check the precise misalignment when its apart, if it's more than I remember it being I suppose I could machine a manifold to suit.

Michael, how does spraying the joint with WD40 help?   If there is a leak would the WD be sucked in and engine revs rise?  
 

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If there is an air leak into the manifold, the engine sound will change when any liquid is sprayed on it.  WD40 is usually readily to hand.

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How worn are the slides in the carbs you've tried? Surrey cycles sell oversize slides if you fancy giving that a try, id also buy a new needle and needle jet to rule that out. 
Dan 

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I've tried spraying a volatile liquid around the card and manifold, no difference.

The slides and card bodies are in good shape, one slide is new.

I've tried old and new jets and needles, no difference.  I suspect a previous owner may have had similar trouble and replaced jets, needle and slide with new parts.

What else could cause the high tickover speed?   Something not carb related?  The way the engine performs when underway suggests that things like ignition and valve timing are okay.  Never the less I will check these.

I've done a plug chop test, turned the ignition off at ~55mph, plug colour good.  Further suggests no air leak.

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Worn carb bodies, battery, charging system, all worth checking. Though erratic and ever changing settings to keep the carbs near working suggests they are worn out. 

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float level to high. get it warm .let it tick over . Then turn fuel tap off , and note if it idles good for a short time . It worth trying

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We don't know what ignition system, certainly a worn adv/retd unit will do this, ie high tick over, EI cannot do this. The other point here is the AIR SCREW is not to adjust tick over. It is to get the mixture right for tickover and then leave it alone. 
As it happens my Electra, runs on the monoblock it was bought with in 1984 (1st Norton Day) it has not done a high mileage but the monoblock behaves impeccably. Set the TO mixture and haven't touched it for years. The Boyer ignition sorted out a few rubbish moments with the mechanical adv/retd ignition system.

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As Al O says above. The tickover speed is governed by the slide stop screw. Undo for less speed. Never failed for me. Aged grey matter tells me that when inlet manifold gasket leaked on my Navi and tickover speed went up, normal service with rather weak running was temporarily fixed with throttle stop screw. (It was 1971)

Is there a problem here? This seems so obvious but.... Cable tight? Obstruction below slide? 

 

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The monobloc carburettor(s) is in good shape, virtually no wear.  Float height is spot on, see photo.
Ignition, I have fitted Boyer electronic and the (12volt) charging system is working well, battery in good shape.
Slide hanging on the cable.  It's not, the slide is closing completely with plenty of free play.  Lifting the slide with the throttle stop and adjusting the airscrew will affect engine speed but makes the carburation very poor, response is erratic pulling away from a standstill,  tickover still too high.
All the symptoms suggest to me an air leak.  At the high tickover with a hot engine closing the choke makes no difference, soon as I pull away engine runs poorly, as it should with a hot engine and choke closed.  Therefore not an air leak?
As suggested, I sprayed a volatile liquid (WD40) around the carb/manifold area, made no difference.  Thinking about this, I'm quite sure the liquid would evaporate on the hot engine long before any chance of it being "sucked" in unless there was a massive air leak.  Tried it with a cold engine, no difference.

 

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Hi John,

If the slide can close completely,  ie. the engine will stop/won't idle, then you must have the slide open too much with the throttle stop screw and probably don't have an air leak.
You say that pulling away is 'erratic', which suggests that the mixture is wrong. This could be due to any one of,or a mixture of, partially blocked idle circuit, too small or too large pilot jet, needle jet or needle worn, needle too high/ too low or wrong slide cutaway.
You have to remember that the airspeed through the carb drops substantially as you open the throttle until the engine speed catches up, causing mixture problems.

Have you got a 'Colourtune' plug? If so, using it might give you a pointer as to where your mixture is at when idling.

Another thing you can try is to retard the ignition a little and see if the idle response is better, but you would need to be careful how far you go as WOT/high speed running would be compromised if you left it like it.

Regards, George 
 

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I ha this exact same problem and it was ultimately found to be due to the incorrectly set throttle slides. The throttle adjusters on the top of the carbs were not allowing the slides to completely close. This meant they were always running on the main jet with little influence from the idle and air jets. 

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Thanks for the discussion and suggestions.

David, an interesting thought.  The valves and guides are new, no oil seal as such but I machined a scraper on the top ends of the guides. 

George, the slide is closing completely and, yes, the engine should stop but it doesn't, it runs at ~1800 rpm.   I've adjusted the airscrew to get the engine to run without hesitation as I pull away from standstill.   I can get the revs down with the air screw but it achieves this by messing up the mixture, hence the hesitation/roughness on pulling away.

One more point, surely tick over speed is set by a combination of throttle stop and air screw adjustment?

I'm going to have another look at the problem tomorrow.

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Have you tried blocking the filter side of the carb while it is ticking over at 1800 rpm? If the revs don't drop there is an air leak somewhere. If they do drop the carb must be letting air through.
 Have the ports been modified at all? if so it's possible that the tool used has broken through to the rocker box or outside.

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One more point, surely tick over speed is set by a combination of throttle stop and air screw adjustment?
Yes/No. The AIR Screw sets the mixture for tick over, but the TS sets the speed. If you try yo use the AS to change the speed from best you will get a bad pick up when you 'drive away' As you have found. Set Air Screw (for best) and try to leave it alone!
What I have seen in such an odd situation was that the cover for the pilot jet and the pilot jet are NOT seating. But you have tried several carbs.
The favourite 'trick' that causes this problem is the slide is 'hanging' on the cable and NOT dropping onto the Throttle stop screw.
Another NO point is the charging system, this cannot effect Tick over like this. 
TRY to remember- the bike runs on a battery quite well until the battery is flat, then the bike stops. Leave the bike for a while the battery recovers and you can run for another few miles (if lucky).

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I tried blocking off the air to the carb as suggested by Darren S.    Engine stops, also blocked the air passage for the air screw, engine stops.  Confirms no air leak.
Off with the carb, again!   Went through the jets and needle, all the right bits but as a check I decided to measure the needle and compare with other "B" needles.  It was slightly different by a few thou, that is to say tapered a little different than the other "B" needles I have.  Checked the other complete carb, needle again somewhat different to the spares I have.
Replaced the needle, problem solved!  Ticks over reliably at around 1000/1100 rpm.  Responds well to air screw/throttle stop to set tickover.  Needed full choke for about a mile or so. Once warmed up occasional spitting back on a light throttle.  Tried to tune that out with the airscrew, no luck so might need a different slide.
I'm much relieved to have got to the bottom of the problem.   Again, thanks for the replies and discussion.

 

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Not giving up on the diagnostics and figuring out the issue. Another very informative thread here.

-Pat

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Not sure I understand the 'fix'. Your initial post says:-
            I've tried 3 different carburettors, all behave the same. 

 

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Tony,  I have two complete 375/48 carbs, both gave very similar results, high tick over.  The third is just an incomplete 375/33 from an Ariel Arrow.  I used parts from the other carbs to get it usable.  With hindsight wasn't going to work!

I hunted through my box of Amal bits and found several "B" needles, as near as I can tell all identical but the two in the carbs I tried are different.

I'm guessing that the two dodgy needles are poor quality pattern spares (if "pattern" spares for Amal's were ever made?).  Or, more likely, someone has tried to modify the needles.
 

 



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