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1938 model 18 Oil issue

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hi there well it finally arrived so I thought I would do some commissioning work.

I gave a really good clean out as it was a little bit messy.

Refilled it and did a oil check.  

Nothing came out of the pump return So turned it off pretty quick. Took off the outlet pipe that goes to the engine and nothing came out.. Worked my way back up and the backend of the filter On the tank has a spring and ball. Which to me  clearly stops the oil flow.

Am I missing something here as how can the oil flow down to the pump with a spring loaded ball stopping it?

I am awaiting my handbook to arrive, so I've got nothing to go on at the moment.

Maybe someone could assist:))

 

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Do you think this could be a wet sumping idea.?

I'm sure there should be feed from the tank through the filter , Down the elbow into the crank case.

I'm thinking someone has made up a ball bearing Sat on top of a spring That sits in the union Out of the tank.

The pump would pull the oil through and when the engine is off, the ball bearing sits down and stops any oil movement.

What are your thoughts, chaps?

 

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It must be a wet sumping mod.  If the ball is on top of the spring and NOT underneath, it might work.  But gear pumps are notorious for not having a great deal of suction until they are primed.  So if all the oil under the ball drains down and the pipe is full of air, the pump might not drag enough oil down to establish oil flow.  Maybe that's the problem?
If the ball is under the spring - it will completely block the supply.

I'd take it out and try again.
 

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Absolutely and totally agree now so thank you David.

I have some other major issues with it, so going to have to standby for the time being:((

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Remove that engine-destroying ball valve. You've had a lucky escape (I hope).

Before starting the bike again, make sure there is oil on the big end, main bearings and cams and that oil is reaching the pump.

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... as has been said here many times, Velocette spring framed singles have exactly such a ball valve in the feed line to their gear type pump and the only time I've heard of a fault is when they've been incorrectly assembled.

Ball valves do not destroy engines. Incompetent mechanics do.

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Ok thanks so much chaps, I did actually remove it as I couldn't guarantee the spring was going to compress under suction and let the oil through so I played the safe game for the time being.

also, 24 hours later I wanted to check on how much it wet sumps.  Luckily, not so much came out! So I think I'm okay there.

The other issues I have is the doll head gearbox was very hard to get the right gear and neutral, So I decided to pop the front off the gearbox and have a look as there was quite a lot of play in the rods and associated levers.

I'm really glad I did that because I found some loose nuts and bolts, but the gears and gear cluster is in brilliant condition as is the cam plate.

I've attached some pictures for interest:)))

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In number one, you can clearly see the lever arm bolt has come loose, Thank goodness it was that simple:))). Now I need to work on Rod with two clevis on the end.  It looks like the original pins which I somehow want to retain, but they are worn 30% I would guess

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... you're not determined to be authentic you could replace the clevises with rose joints which are much more positive.

In reply to by ian_soady

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Thanks ian for the idea, annoyingly i love originality but didn't think of that, good idea tho!

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Hi chaps, I hope you don't mind me asking all the silly questions as I'm relatively new to Norton. Well actually it's my first Norton.:)))

I think you know the saga it was supposed to be mint and perfect, but I have found a few issues.

I have some questions and I wonder if they would be an expert who could answer me. hopefully:)))

Thank you for the responses reference the oil supply. I took out the ball and spring and fed straight to the crank case.... I was worried about wet sump, but there wasn't a lot of oil that came out of the sump after a quick run so I'm okay with that.

Next question does decompression spring look correct? Should it be the normal type?

On the primary chain case, do you bond the rubber band around the case to stop the oil pouring out?

with the piston at bottom dead centre should there be any play putting a spanner on the crank case sprocket?
Using a spanner, there is approximately two mil of movement,  OR Will the oil supply with the engine running fill that gap?.

I will attach photos of each component i need a little bit of help with:))

Many thanks again again

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Does the crank move, up and down or in and out of the cases?  Up and down suggest a big issue the end float a little less.  The valve lifter spring is the same as on my pre war machine so I would say it's correct. Common practice is to fit the seal to the inner case with a rubber adhesive or maybe silicone then the front face to seal on the oil bath with heavy grease. 

PS:  plumbers spanner needs replacing, you may get a better feel with the correct size spanner (11/16 Whit)
;-)

Hi there.

there is barely any end float side-by-side Which I think is good, It's when the piston is at bottom dead centre and I was toying with the spanner ( You caught me out there using an adjustable) :))

It really is only a couple of millimetres maximum, but I can hear it With a slight click.

I just wasn't sure on the tolerances.

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It will always feel like there's free play at top dead centre and bottom dead centre. Probably more at bottom dead centre.

It's just because the piston hardly moves at all for a few crankshaft degrees.

That's what I was thinking. It's always going to be the most At bottom centre as there is a fractional crankshaft movement and the piston Hardy moves. And of course, whilst the engine isn't running, there is no oil so I'm really hoping it should be okay:))

Thanks for that Michael:)) it does sound very nice whilst idling and I've only taken it for a very small ride consisting of less than a mile.

I've ordered a load of bits for it as I want it to be the best I can make it!

What bike have you got, Michael?

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Regarding gear change rod clevises.  For some reason I once decided to make new close tolerance pins on my lathe.  Gear changing was hopeless.  The pins rotate mostly about their axis.  But because they are at right angles to each other, they also rock slightly in the other direction.  If you prevent that, you can't change gear.

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And another question folks.

I've taken apart the clutch unit and I have a few questions again:))

It's a phosphor bronze coating on the clutch drum. Is this normal?

Is the clutch band designed to keep oil out of the clutch plates as probably fitted with Cork and I know that it didn't go well with that type of friction?

If I put friction plates in, am I right in thinking this will work well without oil in the primary drive and run a dry system?

It looks like an atlas clutch or a 16 H clutch which I believe are the same?

it's running for friction plates plus the brake pad material in the clutch hub..

Does this sound okay?

cheers

 



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