From where should an International not leak oil...?

Thank you all for your comments.  The build quality of this machine does not equal my expectations based on the quality of restoration work that I do.  I purchased this completed machine because I am well aware of the time and expense commitments involved making restorations right, and being in the 69th year of my life, I don’t want to be spending the next 5-10 years building a machine I might never get to ride.  I’d be remiss to not admit some disappointment with the build quality of this machine.  Moving on…  I am the custodian of a most lovely International that I’ve wanted since my early 20’s.

Once I have eliminated the petrol drip from the carburetor, then I can ride the machine, familiarize myself as miles tick by, read the literature, ask questions; all part of what makes old bikes so enjoyable and rewarding.  Based on my own experience with machines I’ve worked on, the amount of oil coming from the bevel drive is not what the manufacturer intended.  Were it not for these leaks, the remainder would be part and parcel of ownership.

I am aware that my following thoughts and questions precede a more thorough study of the factory parts lists, workshop books and the rebuild guide by Mitchell Barnes.  It’s not necessarily easy trying to visualize what parts look like, how they are intended to be fit together along with the steps and procedures allowing the build be done right so things don’t have to be disassembled a second time.  Especially so when I’ve not seen these parts as they fit together except as depicted in spares and workshop books.  I don’t doubt my mechanical abilities, but I want to be as informed as I can before I turn the first nut or bolt.

I will sincerely appreciate your comments to my general thoughts and questions to help me begin wrapping my head around remediating the bevel drive leaks when the time comes.

It seems there are essentially 4 leak sites, the top and bottom bevel housing leaks and the upper and lower rubber rings for the vertical shaft tube…?  The cam box will have to come off to remediate the bevel drive oil leaks…? 

1. Am I of the correct understanding that the upper and lower bevel housings are fitted both with paper gaskets and copper “gaskets”?  (I am not referring to the copper top and bottom “union washers” of the “vertical shaft tube”).  (I see a part number for item numbers 3 and 18 being referred to as “housing” and “packing” washers respectively.  There is another exact appearing "washer" with no reference in Spares List).
2. Proper fitment of the vertical shaft rubber rings is critical to reduce leakage.
3. I’m wondering if the copper plate and paper gasket top and bottom are certain thicknesses affecting deck height and in turn bevel drive gear lash?  (I’d be cutting my own gaskets, so this may be a valid consideration). 
4. Bevel gear lash is adjusted by “packing shims” as per the factory shop manual? (Looking at spares and workshop manuals, I can’t seem to put my eyes on these shims).
5. I would think a sealer such as Three Bond, Yamabond, Kawabond, etc, will help make the desired seal.
6. Looking at the attached exploded drawing, it does appear the cam box stands alone, is fixed separately to the cylinder head without disturbing the cylinder head joint?
7. I have a granite surface plate so any minor surfacing work required allowing at the least a somewhat better fit of upper and lower housings to the cam box and crankcase, I should be able to do.
8. In the meanwhile, I’ll be reading the factory shop books and Barnes and asking you fine fellows more questions as time goes by.

I hope my thread will benefit fellow members.  Enough for now; thank you for your participation in my journey with an International.

Kind regards to all; stay safe and stay well.

...offer a bit more information?

...what you've written, let me do my readings and once i have a somewhat better understanding of what you've written, then we can schedule a time to get together on the phone... As with my other bikes, the International is no different in terms of my commitment to it, so it likely may be bit before i feel prepared for us to talk on the phone so as to not spend your time explaining things that i can better understand by doing some reading and research on my own, e.g., looking up pn's you provided for wipers and gib plates, etc. I also forgot to mention that I have EM Franks, so will refer to him in my preparatory readings before our phone call.  As an aside, to help minimize confusion and for my own sanity, i always try to adhere to the vernacular seen in factory literature rather than naming or describing a part as something other than the vernacular seen in the Spares List and Maintenance Manual.

With the International, i know that i am on the front end of establishing a familiarity with the machine, so i really appreciate you for being willing to help me as i learn more abut what i want to understand.  The last paragraph of your reply is very helpful to better understand considerations as i move forward.  

Agreed, intend on put some miles on so i better understand what's under me.

Kind regards, Steve

...comments.  My oil leaks have to be a matter of the vertical tube and upper and lower housings' setup not done as well as it needs to be.   I'm going to familiarize myself with the literature as far as all the parts related to sealing the bevel drive and the cam box are concerned, put some miles on the machine and once I've done so, then revisit the leaks with some of the folks here on the forum.

...coming back to this conversation, I always appreciate your observations and comments.  I'm slowly coming up with a plan of approach for addressing these leaks which in my mind are not leaks which new engines would have when they left the factory.

David, to clarify, the adjuster screw you are referring to is immediately above the “oil pump tell tale,” i.e,. the brass hexagonal devise (immediately to the left of lower bevel drive housing) that has a plunger in the middle of it that sticks up when engine is running; this adjuster (needle) screw being held captive by a nut, this is the adjuster screw you are referring to…?  (photo attached).

First, i need to read the literature i have.  Second, i need to ride the machine to get familiar with it.  Third, i then need to have a reasonably defined step-by-step approach for a beginning point to address these leaks. 

In my mind, the most concerning leaks (because they are SO ACTIVE) are at the upper and lower drive housings and the vertical shaft tube.  As things are now, until I have done "1, 2 and 3" above, i really can't move forward.  In my mind, it seems inevitable that the cam box needs to be removed so i can address leaks coming from the housings and the tube.  I'm not going to start ripping things apart until i feel I've done my homework and ridden the machine a bit.

I appreciate folks comments, i'm just a bit concerned i many not move at a steady purposeful rate to plan an approach to remediate these leaks until later this summer or even into the fall, but i'll do what i can to keep this thread alive and moving forward.

Kind regards to all who participate here; i appreciate it very much.

...yeah, no S - -T.  in the foolishness of youth, i ran castor oil in my B50.  Sure smelled good.....

David, thanks for the comments on cam box removal not being problematic as it has crossed my mind that at least i am working with a running engine and not a box of parts of which i am quite familiar with on my '27 Harley builds.

Thanks again for your comments.  It would be a long, lonely road without you guys!

I would appreciate if anyone can tell me where i might source at least one, preferably two of these oil line fittings so i can fit a compact ball valve inline. 

The fitting in the picture is from my '37 International; 5/32" i.d. which is also the i.d. of the compact ball valve i intend to use.  I've looked on the different sites i know of and have not seen this fitting.

As much as i don't want to fit an inline valve it's the practical thing to do otherwise i'm going to have to drain the oil after every ride so the oil in the tank does not dump into crankcase overnight.  I want to log some miles on the bike to better familiarize myself with it.  I could clamp the hose, but would prefer a valve in lieu of fiddling with a clamp.

Thanks in advance and kind regards.

for referencing me back to your post of the 14 instant for which is part of other posts i have copied, pasted and printed off.  Do you have any suggestions where i can find that fitting i posted here and above?  I've looked at different sites and no seen anything.

...Robert, Jonathan and David for your kind replies.

Robert, I don’t know but I have my doubt that ¼” BSP flare is an International part.  The little amount I’ve done perusing parts books, looking on websites, my impression the feed and return lines are one piece…??  Also, your comment of the 15th instant did not go unnoticed.  Obviously this engine has not been test ridden after its first build

Jonathan, thanks for identifying the fitting is a ¼” BSP “flare.”  Agreed, the oil leakage exceeds excessive.  I’ve got to do more reading to further familiarize myself with the engine.  Yes, I drain sump after every trip.  For the time being, a few times this riding season, I’d like to put only a few miles on the engine. 

Given I am either or all over/under or correctly oiled, and given there may a breathing issue, am I putting the engine at risk by riding it a few miles?  Or should i just put the bike on the shelf until i make time to put some wrenches to the cambox?  (the darn thing starts so easy and runs so good, i'd at least like to ride it a little bit…)

David, thanks for your comments.  Last night I was on Paul’s site skimming through his entire catalog to gain more familiarity to what I see in parts books.  The other evening, I opened E. M. Franks.  As with anything I’m first exposed to, reading the written word without benefit of pictures requires time spent visualizing what the author is saying alongside looking at parts book, owner’s and  workshop manuals, etc…  If I’m interpreting things correctly, it sounds like the cambox can come off without disturbing the cyl.head joint…?  However, once cambox is removed, upon reassembly I will need to pay close attention to cam timing being in proper position...?  I use Three Bond 1214 which is same as Yamabond, Hondabond, etc; doesn't harden.  Good info on the 3 breathers and also noted in Richard C’s comment of the 15th instant, discussing the spring-loaded ball bearing valve metering oil to cam box as also chanced upon last evening reading E. M. Franks…

In any event, thank you all for your patience and sharing what you’ve learned through your experience.  I copy, paste and print off what you fellows write and put it in my International files.

(attached pic; "the can" so belongs with the Inter.)

…thanks for the replies; you fine fellows are up late!!

Robert, thank you for your encouraging words to ride the International paying close attention as I go…  My gut feeling as well.  When I rode it the 3 miles in my neighborhood, everything seemed SO right.  Except the oil leakage...  I’m ok with some oil leaks, after all I do own a ’67 Mk.1A Interceptor and whilst it leaves its marks it does not actively leak before my eyes like the International which is over the top and something must be done sooner than later.  Such a lovely, oily machine...  And, indeed, “the can” is simply brilliant.

David, thank you for your reassuring words on cambox removal.  And the ease of holding cam drive timing.  I may have misstated, the oil drops from tank to crankcase almost overnight, so I remove the plug from crankcase the next morning or else I have major pooling in my collection pan.  Hence my desire to install an inline ball valve rather than pinch the hose with a clamp.  Excellent on the ¼” BSP hose tail; I’ll source one asap.  Seems like brass might be better as it softer than stainless steel and will get a better seal…?  I’m confident if I can purchase short ones or even if I have to cut the length off of them, then I can make room for that ball valve.  Love that you carry an old towel!

What I’m thinking is ride it a bit this year as I continue my studies and then winter of ‘22-’23 remove the cam box so I can get to the housings and the vertical tube and of course ask questions as I go…  (I have another project I want to finish up this coming winter).  My hope is once the housing and tube leaks are remedied, I'll be content (: 

... what I’m really starting to let sink in my brain is the fact this engine was started for the first time and ran for only a few minutes and I am now taking on the troubleshooting of whatever issues there are within the seller’s build.

Richard, Jonathan, David and Michael, YES! a picture of your oil pressure gauge is worth a thousand words!  What makes conceptualizing things difficult on an engine that I’ve never seen before with the ancient sophistication and complexity of the International is that whilst symptoms such as oil leaks are obvious, the cause of them is less so apparent when reading manuals and trying to visualize what is obscured by the relative absence of pictures.  

1.  I have a 0-15 psi oil pressure gauge coming in the mail.  Clearly, I must verify what the oil pressure is...
2. The “Tell Tale” pushes out oil like a wounded whale…
3. I will appreciate if you can recommend a supplier for the ¼” BSP tail, I am not aware of anyone here in the colonies who supplies that large size.
4. Jonathan, when you say “I suspect something is missing,” could you please clarify a bit more?

I’ve printed off an exploded view of the engine to further aid my progress…  And diving into E.M. Franks, Spares, Maintenance and Instruction Manuals.

Having taken heed of everyone's welcome comments I have referred to the green factory 1946 Maintenance Manual, page 15, E.M. Franks, the Spare Parts List and the 1938 Instruction Manual. 

Attached you will find 2 pictures with measurements of parts.  Removed the "pressure valve" with spring loaded ball.  The Manual calls a 7/32" ball; the one i removed is 1/4"   The spring is very stiff with 0.036" diameter coils and with one end broken off.  This spring does not look like a "light" progressively wound sort of spring as shown on page 37 of E.M. Franks and in Spare Parts List.  I forgot to turn the adjuster screw in to count the amount of turns out the screw was set at, but in hindsight seems moot given the spring is probably not the correct spring nor possibly a factory spring.  The diameter is such that i had a bit of a heckuva time pulling it out...  The Manual calls for 2-1/2 - 3 turns out.  I'm going to limit my comments further and faithfully await your comments.

The metering screw to control the amount of oil to cambox, picture attached.  Not much to be said here, this screw was turned out 2-1/6th turns; the Maintenance Manual states 1/2 turn.  Will await your comments.

Mainshaft oil metering jet, 1 pic attached.  The spring looks the one that should go with the spring loaded ball "pressure valve" noted in post 1/3...?  Diameter is 0.255"     Length is 0.875" and as you will note is sort of progressively wound, the coils quite thin.  The  sketch of the spring in the Spare Parts List depicts a "straight" spring with heavy coils, not this light spring...  The "mainshaft metering jet" enters its hole with very slight resistance; once all the way home, it moves back and forth with no resistance.  None of the holes appear tampered with, but then i don't know the diameter of the holes this jet left the factory with...

Given my findings shared in these 3 posts, darn good i am "going in" further.

I don't see these 2 springs listed on Paul Norman's site, have not looked elsewhere or where may i source them...?

I faithfully look forward to your replies.

The top and bottom fittings the pipe that feed the cambox are same as fuel line fittings.  I went through my stuff and found these fittings (pic attached) that i intend to put a thick cloth reinforced rubber hose to each of these fittings with a T connector in the middle to accommodate a 0-15 psi oil pressure gauge (pic attached).  Am i ok using this reinforced rubber hose instead of a metal pipe to obtain my oil pressure setting?

...before i reply to Jonathan's comments later this evening.

have been reading literature and want to double, triple, quadruple clarify.  The oil feed line from oil tank connects to the lower fitting on crankcase, is this correct?  The upper fitting on crankcase is the return.

What i'm seeing in literature, ohv's are opposite, upper fitting is feed, lower fitting is return...

Thanks in advance!

Thanks Jonathan for your reply.  Addressing your comments as you presented them.

Pressure reading, yes.  After i have addressed what i have found.

Tell Tale, yes.  Will remove, inspect, repack with a leather washer of my own manufacture.  Out of curiosity, what thickness leather?

Oil pressure relief valve...  that 1/4" ball disturbs me, perhaps needlessly...?  The 1/4" ball is either not sealing because the radius of the hole is 7/32" or somebody pounded against the 1/4" ball to try forcing a larger ball to fit and now the radius of a 7/32" ball is too small...?  A couple other scenarios might exist that i won't belabor.  Ideally, I'd much prefer to use the factory spec 7/32" ball.  My only concern is i don't know the nature of the end of the hole the ball seats against, but i would think a 7/32" ball would work fine even if a 1/4" ball was pounded in...?  My only fear, likely irrational, is the 7/32" ball would go through the hole and then be irretrievable...  Likely not, I'll put my eyeball to things and see what i see...

Brass metering jet hole diameters; if you have them that'd be greatly appreciated.

The metering screw adjusts oil flow to back of piston...  Now i know why there is so much smoking... (:

On my very first start, i did check for oil return.  What i saw i seem to recall flow looked like a continuous stream, but it was only a quick glance.  I need to look at the return flow again after i have remediated the issues discussed.

Jonathan, thank you for your kind offer on sourcing a ball and springs.  Ideally, the solution would be to have new factory parts.  The one light spring, slightly tapered at both ends, does it appear factory?  Then we don't know if it's good, but it 'appears' in good condition...  Is that light spring supposed to go in the cavity of the oil pressure spring loaded relief valve?  That heavy broken spring, does that spring look like what should fit against the brass metering jet?  At the least, i need that heavier spring, assuming that spring should not be the same as the lighter spring in the oil pressure relief valve...?  the 1/4" ball looks good if i decide not to replace it with a 7/32" ball...

So, at worst case i need one new spring and a 7/32" ball.  I can source the 7/32" ball, so all i would need is a new spring for the shaft metering bronze jet.  My local hardware store has a spring assortment, but i don't know what spec spring i would need to select...

So, if you can provide me the one spring that would be appreciated.  Or if you can source suitable replacements for both springs that would even be better.  Just my thoughts...  Thanks again, Jonathan; i'll look forward to your reply.