Ok! I’ve started a thread under “Singles!”
Thank you all for the time you’ve spent answering my questions and sharing your knowledge and experience along with your thoughts and comments contained in my introduction; I shall reply to each in order of their receipt.
David Cooper – “If your frame is hard…” Absolutely agreed, leave well enough alone! At this point what I have for paperwork is a bill of sale; the bike being built from parts which I deduced during my conversations with the prev.owner. So, down the line somewhere I will obtain a title and registration which is a relatively easy thing to obtain here in Colorado, USA
As I was doing some perfunctory ‘research’ I wondered about that the existing steering damper on the Inter being fitted with an Andre damper from the factory. The original 1936 brochure that came with the bike confirms such (pic attached). Also attached is a photo of the lug that is under the existing damper; given that my frame is probably a model 18, is this lug the same as seen on a pre-war Inter frame? I am aware that Kinpin Components sells a lovely looking reproduction Andre; my concern would be sourcing the bracket that fixes the Andre to the lug on steering head...? And, will the lug on my Model 18 will accommodate the fixing bracket…? I do note Kingpin sells the strap (anchor), but it is not clear in my mind how it fastens about the lug and he only sells the strap and not the friction plate and bolt. (I have a turning lathe, but it only can turn SAE threads...)
As I’ve been reading your kind remarks and what little I knew about the International, I figured there were likely not many machines in existence as they left the factory. On the one hand, I can appreciate the rigors an 84 year old machine has been subjected to and on the other hand, have less of an appreciation for how many Inter’s saw competitive track use, ham-fisted club wielders and other sorts of abuses…
David, thank you for your comment to not worry too much about originality; All things considered, I’m grateful to have one in my garage. David, it goes GREAT! So far I could not be happier with how it starts, drives and shifts!
Reply to Robert Tuck
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It’s a fine machine Steve...
Do what many don’t do and enjoy the ride. The details are immaterial, it’s got the beating heart and the stance of a fine machine. You can address what ever you feel you need to but little will change as to the riding experience. These are sturdy powerful machines that amaze modern bike riders when it comes to bend swinging and hill hunting. It looks superb and no doubt will go as well so enjoy that and compile your wish list for the items that will compliment the experience. I had my dating cert today which opened another avenue of intrigue and enjoyment.
very best regards
Jon
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Thanks, Jon, that is...
...my full intent with the old fellow. International's have always retained a fixed gleam in my eye the past 4.5 decades... That's much too long to not enjoy the machine! None of the aesthetics will prevent me from fully enjoying the International. (I love writing out the full name, "International..."). I believe my red blood corpuscles were shaped like an "M" for "motorcycles" from conception... The petrol drippage is one thing I want to remediate before putting any mileage of significance. That and begrudgingly maybe fitting an in-line ball valve to keep the oil from dropping into the crankcase over night. And then in the longer term, another issue i have yet to disclose... But I shall once the conversation has settled down on what I've posted to date.
I will be most curious as to what the cert reveals about your machine!
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Reply to David Cooper’s 2nd post
David, thank you for clarifying engine and frame numbers were not far off from each other. And that gearbox numbers were completely separate and the backside stamped with gear ratio numbers. Attached is a photo of the backside which I suspect reveals the ill omen of not being an Inter box given that I see only casting numbers which may offer information that…?
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Reply to Jonathan Newton’s 2 posts
Post #1 - Indeed, I shall as Chris Streather whom I assume is in charge of providing certs here in the club. Agreed, I am not going to get hung up on originality, I’m grateful to just have the remnants making up one lovely looking Inter in my garage! I do appreciate you looking through your collection “to see if there are specific 1937 details listed.” As mentioned in my Introduction, I need to resolve the petrol drip before I go back out again and agreed, I “can tweak the details as you (I) go.”
Post #2 - Jon, my email address is in "My Details," of which I will assume you can access? I will welcome any pictures you send to me!
Jon, the 3 pictures sowing front and rear petrol tank mounts... I could not help but notice the "QD" drilled wing nuts... Those are factory...?
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2 posts from Ian Richsteig
Post # – Point 1. I’m still not clear on the seat stud “thing,” but at least for the time being, nothing I’m going to correct. AS it is, I have removed the perfect condition Wright saddle and replaced it with a cheap knock-off as the Wright looks like it would not hold up well to much use. Point 2. Understood on the Andre as discussed by David; if I decide to purchase an Andre from Kingpin, I would want to make certain I have the torque arm bracket that will fix the damper to the lug on headstock; the frame being identified as a 1946 Model 18. Point 5. “Front tank description.” Here is where things get interesting and I do believe the explanation by Richard Cornish identifying the frame a 1946 Model 18 will explain the aluminum plate attaching to a sort of "split "Y" lug one could describe as 2 lugs that suggests the frame is non-International…? Looking at the pictures provided by Jonathan, his frame has ONE lug the aluminum plate fixes to… An identifying feature of an International frame…? Point 6. M30 straight vs. curved shift lever; incorrect such as it might be, the curved lever on my bike “pairs” to the adjustability of the foot rest for a reasonable ergonomic fit thus easing shifting; I’m ok with that!
I am in Colorado, USA; Fort Collins is the town I live in, drive time one hour north of Denver. Spring through Autumn, we are on Mountain Standard Time.
Ian, my email address is in "My Details." Any pictures you send to me are most welcome!
Post #2 – Thank you for your discussion about features differentiating and Inter frame from model 18, i.e., the letter “A” followed by numeral “3” and then a space followed by “5502.” Are there identifiers to determine the fork, i.e., what model the fork was fitted to when the machine left the factory?
Your mention of additional bracket for silencer… You are referring to the bracket on the exhaust pipe fixing to front engine bracket?
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Random observations...
1. Tool box appears to be made of cast aluminum
2. Rear mudguard is alloy; front mudguard is steel
3. I note in factory pictures the front mudguard is longer on the road model and has front and rear stays. My front mudguard is shorter and only has a rear stay. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
4. Two different "chin pad tanks." One version with smooth tank top. Another version with the 4 holes going through from top to bottom. I have seen both iterations in a number of pictures of different bikes... What gives?
5. Tool box latch is not factory...?
6. Center stand does not "flip" over center and will violently slam down at its alarming spring-loaded speed. (After i receive and have fitted the Brooklands can from Armour's, I will test to see if the stand will clear the can. Assuming the stand will still flip over center, then I shall remove it, take pictures and post them to confirm the stand is not the stand for an International as well as clarify the features of an Inter stand so i can make, if possible, the necessary "adjustments" so the stand does not come down).
7. Am I correct that the oil pump is inside the crankcase?
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Richard Cornish's two posts
Richard, thank you for the pictures you posted and the double confirmation alongside Ian of this frame being a Model 18. I will re-read the thread "Looking at pre-war Internationals".
In closing for the moment; a huge thank you to each and all for helping me learn about my bike!
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I've been sifting through...
...all that i could find on the site about International's and found this picture of the lug behind the top steering head which is different than the lug of the head stock that is 1946 Model 18. I really would kind of like to have an Andre damper... But how to fix the anchor strap to the head stock is what would need to be addressed before spending money for the Andre...
The 2nd photo is the lug on my frame... I suppose if i really wanted an Andre, then i could cut out the "notch" to make room for the anchoring strap... Oy. Not sure i want to do any more modifying to the trusty old fellow than he has already endured the past 84 years. 84 years...
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There are two bosses…
There are two bosses upstanding, one on each side of the exhaust nut. On earlier bikes these were threaded and took a pair of head steady tubes that were fixed to the top front sidecar lugs. Later bikes ...I don't know what date but maybe mid 30's...don't have the head steadies and the bosses are not even drilled and threaded. I fitted stays out of curiosity but I don't believe they do anything much apart from making maintenance a bit more difficult which is probably why they were dropped from the design. My frame and engine left the factory in 1932.
The Brooklands can was not a standard factory fitting. It's tail end needs a strap to take its weight. Lots of different ones appear. Mine was fitted by PO and you can see it in the picture attached. I think he welded a 6" extension to the pipe so the silencer is set a bit further back than usual.
Mine does not have the correct crinkle edge tank. I have no idea where mine came from but it's not going anywhere. It has the damper stay bolted on top. I'd like dimensions of an original one, because this is very close to the filler when it is open. I've never yet felt the need for the damper, but I've not yet been over 70mph. It's running in really...done about 800 miles or thereabouts since the engine was rebuilt..
The rigid Inter frame has very low ground clearance. 3.5 inches if I remember correctly. So centre of gravity is very low, which helps handling.
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David, thank you for your kind reply...
...and the picture of your ’32 which is as I understand it, is the first year of production for the International released for retail sales. I do see that front head stay…
Back in my earlier life owned and rode Velo VMT and KSS machines and so the “fishtail” I am partial to. At another earlier time in my life a dear now deceased friend of mine had an original paint 1948 Indian Chief with an earlier “flat” type fishtail can and as those years were my heaviest into English motorcycles, I was able to beg it off of him, although he said, “If I give this to you, you can never sell it.” That and I have a copy of the “Green ‘Un,” MOTORCYCLING" 1959 issue of “Sports Model Road Tests" with the 1947 road test of a garden gate machine showing what may be an iteration of the Brooklands can with the triangular set of holes in the fishtail, but does not look exactly Velo silencer’s I’ve seen… In any event, that is my attachment to ordering a Brooklands from Armour (patiently waiting) that I can replace the cigar shaped reproduction muffler currently on my ’37. Not long after my ’37 was on the lift in my garage, I had to see what that fishtail would look like on the International, so attached is a picture of it on my bike. I’m not entirely sold on the idea that a Velo part belongs on an Inter nor am I entirely sure I Iike the looks of it or how the engine will respond to it, but since I‘ve seen “the can” on other Inters, I at least had to give one a go.
Thanks for clarifying the details on damper stay fitment as regards my ’46 model 18 frame. I still don’t have the Andre out of my head, but after your observations it is lower on the list of things I think I want to spend money on… And I doubt I’ll ever have my machine much over 60 mph… That and I know there is break in period due my engine, so before I can go to higher speeds, I’ll rest with lower speeds at varying throttle positions.
Again, as always, thank you for your always appreciated replies to me!
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Rigid frames.
Hi Steve,
Here are 2 pictures of an ES2 and Inter rigid frames for comparison, the ES2 is on the right and foreground. Both date from 1938 and the ES2 is the same as your 1946 Model 18. Points to note are the height of the headstock compared to each other and also the rear wheel spindle lugs. As the girder forks are same length you will see why the Inter frame sits lower. The girder forks in these photos are not the correct Inter type. You will find it difficult to anchor an Andre damper to the headstock as your tank is too close. Early Inters had the anchorage to the top of the petrol tank, also post war tanks had this facility for retro replacement to older models. The headstock anchorage was first used with the radiused bottom cradle frame.
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Thank you Richard…
…for your reply and the pictures of the two frames side by side revealing their differences. Now that I've seen the bares frames, the difference readily stands out in pictures of complete machines. The more I learn about my machine and International’s in general, I am settling into the idea of enjoying it as it is and letting go of the “incorrectness” of it all; I am fortunate enough to have one!
You pictures make headstock height’s readily apparent, especially so with any further consideration of fitting an Andre damper. I haven't given the idea up entirely, yet, but I have other fish to fry. That's for my next thread coming in a few days... What’s interesting on my Model 18 frame is that the RH rear lug for tank mount was hacked off… However, if that lug was left, the inlet bell of the T10TT would grievously foul the lug. Other than the Model 18 frame being different than the Inter frame in that aspect, that’s the only reason I can think of why the lug was cut off…? In the attached picture, you can see the RH plate above the carb's inlet bell and on the LH side of tank you can see the black strap fixing the tank to the LH frame lug. The LH and RH plates welded to the tank have threaded holes that the fixing bolt threads into. Are these threaded-hole plates what one expects to see on tanks straight off the factory shelf?
Thanks again Richard, for your reply!
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Pictures of my '37 as it currently is...
photos taken last night. If you look closely, you can see the LH front lug must have taken a hit, as it has an ugly weld I'm guessing from decades past...
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1936 Inter petrol tank.
Hi Steve,
The carb/petrol tank lug is a regular problem when fitting a 500 Inter engine in this frame, looking at the Inter frame you will see the lug is further back. The 350 engine is shorter which is not so much of a problem. Attached is a picture of my mate's 1936 tank which he has had fully restored, although the transfers are not the original style. You will see the plates are riveted and soldered, as is the whole tank when original.
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Reply to Richard...
...Thank you for clarifying why the RH lug was cut off. i appreciate learning these details just for the sake of increasing my knowledge base.
On the subject of tanks, factory literature i am reading all points to a sort of satin-chrome finish that both oil and gas tanks left the factory with. Why are many tanks that i see painted in silver-grey?
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Painted tanks.
Hi again Steve,
The factory would often do this if a tank was sent back for repair. The pre-war petrol tanks were soldered rather than welded and if any accident damage was undertaken the repair wouldn't be suitable for plating, so easier and cheaper to paint. All the Inters to racing spec. and later Manx were painted and this may have made this finish more popular.
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Thank you Richard…
... for that interesting information. So, new from the factory, road model tanks were plated. If the tank needed to be repaired, the tank then came back painted silver... Good stuff! I can appreciate Inter's to race spec left the factory painted, likely with the anticipation they be damaged, so painting may have been a savings over plating perhaps...
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Almost without exception,…
Almost without exception, Inters nowadays appear with tanks painted like race bikes, with broad black edges. But road bikes normally appeared with chrome tanks and central silver painted panels outlined in black plus a red coach line (pin stripe in modern US). The brochures show this clearly although their illustrations cannot always be trusted. (They show reversed levers into 1933 whereas they were dropped in about 1931 apart from the decompressor which stayed longer). The thickness of the black line is confusingly described but for road bikes was about 5/8" or 3/4". Page 38 in Bacon's Norton Singles is an example. There's room for an essay on the subject.
Incidentally the tank bolts are normally shouldered and the shoulder bolts up hard to the tank flang. The gap from the bolt head to the tank contains...a steel washer just above the head, a rubber ring washer, the bracket bar on the frame, and then a rubber top hat washer facing down to present a sleeve within the hole, and finally the tank. So the tank should not be stressed no matter how tight it is as long as the washers are correct. Make sure the bolt shanks do not bottom out and punch holes in the tank. All these items are identical to the Dominator front bolts used to the end of the 1960's, so are fairly easy to replace. Often they are lock wired.
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Indeed! I am looking forward to this fascinating journey of discovery “to unravel the life and history of this machine! As far as the engine and frame being a pair that started life together, this will be answered in my reply to Richard Cornish. My inspection suggests parts of the bike have been smashed, broken and repaired. In particular, what is an apparent Model 18 frame…! If I were able to reunite the original frame to my engine by a chance advert; what a moment!! The previous owner fits your suggestion of being an enthusiast who “worked in a shed over a lifetime.” Once I get the “the can,” will post a video of it running! So far, the brief 3 miles I rode the machine, I am happy.