Hello Newbie Dominator 88 1960

hello well it's not  the amal carb try  putting the right oil in  the sae50 should be in the gearbox and  Duckhams w20/50 in the oil tank  and then she just may start  to heavy oil will be like treacle  and it then has to be forced thought small oil ways  No good it's  no wonder the bike will not start,  all this is your learning curve    even my  !954  Norton dominator model88  uses Duckham Q 20/50 classic  and runs and like a sowing  machine  and  my Norton Manxman 650 runs on Duckham Q 20/50  Classic  It starts easy  and runs nice   getting the right oils it's that easy   yours  Anna J  

Hi Neil, these sort of problems seem common after a prolonged lay-up. When you say 'kick-over' do you mean that the bike is physically difficult to kick-over on the starter lever or that the kickstart lever moves OK but the engine just won't start (which is what I think you mean). If it's the second then I imagine that your problem is probably blocked/dirty carb jets - new gaskets etc. are good but the carb will need a proper clean-out. As the bike was laid-up for a year or so then this is a common problem if the carb was left with petrol in it, SAE50 oil will be OK in the motor (as specified by Norton when the bike was new) however, long term, you might think about moving to 20/50 multigrade in the future.

Are the plugs sparking OK?

Welcome to the fold Neil.

Hello now Amal pilot jet screw should one and a half turns out to. Two turns when the engine is running and next the throttle screw for slow running you find all this information in your service Manuel or Haynes manual ,just give the carb a good tickel and get your finger wet then try a good kick some like a bit of choke some do not and flood easy but once she has a smell of petrol she start and run , but you must have the. Ignition leads on the right way round and normally the lead for the drive side is the one nearest the battery box coming from the mag or dizzy ,yours Anna j

Have you checked ignition? If it was running and you have not touched the ignition it is almost certainly set up correctly. Unless it has slipped, which can happen if it backfires.

All it needs is fuel, air and a spark. 

Are you closing the carb air slide when starting it? And opening it straight away? 

The lower screw with its head at the bottom only adjusts tickover. The horizontal one is important for starting, that's the pilot air screw, 1 1/2 turns out to begin with.  If it does start and then seems very lumpy, it sounds like you need to lift the air slide. You don't have the throttle and air slide cables mixed up, do you?

It'll be OK soon!

Hi Neil, SAE50 or 20/50 are both OK for the engine. The gearbox needs EP90 (not SAE50).

This may sound a daft question but are you sure that you're using the choke properly. Cold starting - (choke closed) the choke cable should be in the slack position and once warmed-up the choke should be opened by pulling the cable to the 'tight' state. The only reason I mention this that when, in the early '70s, I got my first Commando and I got it wrong and I had exactly the same problems as you have. As it appears that you haven't altered many settings it's difficult to advise. However:

1) Are all the valves operating correctly (none stuck etc.)? - could be a problem after a lay-up

2) Are the valve clearances (tappets) correct?

3) Have you (or can you) check the ignition timing? - if you haven't moved anything since it used to ride OK then it's unlikely to be a problem but it's worth checking.

4) Does the carb 'tickle' correctly - press down the tickler and after a couple of seconds petrol should dribble - if it's much slower then you may have a blockage somewhere (tank tap filters clogged-up etc.)

On a Twin, if only one cylinder has a problem then they can be a pig to start - when you do manage to get it to run does it run on both cylinders? if not then just touch the exhausts - the duff cylinder pipe will be cold/cool - if this is the case then it's more likely to be valve-gear issues or possibly a coil problem (if the bike has twin coils rather than a distributor).

hello, all now  we do know that EP90 does attack  brass bushing in the gearbox  and they ware more quickly  has John Hudson told us all  Now I use a Castrol ST 90  Witch does not Attack Brass  Bushing in the Gearbox,   you can use a 50sae in your gearbox  that has brass bushing  , yours  anna j

Anna

Once again your information is wrong

See the technical section of this website, look under Heavy twins, Gearbox, oil types, Hypoid gearbox oils explained.

The last paragraph in the article is :-

Is hypoid oil good for your gearbox? This question has comes up from time to time and has featured recently on NOC-L. Apparently, the word is out that hypoid oil can damage non-ferrous parts of gearbox internals. However, there is a letter in the September 1998 issue of the Vintage Motor Cycle which should put our minds at rest. Here, Pat Lelliott who was until recently Technical Services Manager of Duckhams Oils assures us that for well over 30 years the hypoid gear oils manufactured by reputable companies have been formulated with additives that do not react with non-ferrous gearbox components.

David Kennedy in Roadholder No. 202, Nov/Dec 1998

That was in 1998 so well over 30 years before that is pre 1968. most likely early to mid sixties is when Hypoid oils got safe.

Please stop spouting spurious/wrong information

regards

Peter Shand

Chairman EYNOC 

hello yet again peter your not reading thread right and there are many engineering forums on this subject  and EP oil contain additives  that are sulfur-based and  will cause premature wear  on yellow metals like brass or bronze bushings   were as Castrol ST 90 as an additive that helps against  corrosion and helps against wear and help out yellow metals when under stress   So this gearbox oil is more suited for Norton Gearboxes with bronze bushings, And I do not care what anyone else says facts are the facts and even John Hudson said the same thing So  try reading some of the thread correctly,  And I have been around Nortons And other Makes  since I was 15 years old  So that's 51-years experience   So please stop your disinformation    Yours   Anna J 

My old friend worked in army tank gearbox development. He told me that in the tests they did, hypoid gear oil did stain bronze bushes but had no measurable ill effects. Allegedly they did at one time...many decades ago. Technology moves on...not always in a worse direction.

Norton recommended either 50 grade engine oil or 90 gear oil. The numbers for engine and gear oils have nothing to do with each other.

Anna 

You must disagree with everything on the NOC website. Have you read the article headed  'Hypoid gear oils explained',  Oil types, Gearbox, Heavy twins, in the technical section? 

Maybe you should apply for a job as Technical services manager of Duckhams oils as you seem to know all sorts of stuff.

As this is a thread started by a new member having troubles starting his bike, can we please get back to the subject and not go totally off at a tangent. A heavier oil may may it a little harder to start but that is not his problem.

Tony

Anyone wiser than me that can explain why Neils bike is so reluctant to rotate. Never had that problem myself. Could there have been something gone wrong when servicing the carb? Like a gasket obstructing float movement. Tried start spray?

Are you still there, Neil? Is it actually stiff to turn over, or just unwilling to start? Or starts but unwilling to run?  Does it spin easily with the plugs out? I started my Dommie a couple of weeks ago, after neglecting it for several months and it took a couple of minutes to get going properly. 

You need a manual. Meanwhile, download the Amal carburettor tuning instructions. Various sites have copies. You probably won't need to worry about changing slide or main jets if it worked OK before but it will tell you which adjuster screw does what.

There is a lot of misinformation out there about the effect of modern gear oils on 'yellow metals'. All GL4 and GL5 oils are required to pass the ASTM D130 copper corrosion test, as were their predecessors. So you can, IMHO, use a modern gear oil to either of these specs in you gearbox. These universal test methods are backed by extensive field testing and subject to rigerous quality control. Where the anti scuff agents used are aggressive towards bushes, then corrossion inhibitors are added to the formulation to inhibit attack.

Never trust random posts on the web, Anna.  Charles knows what he is talking about.  The problem with the web is that 99% of its content has been copied from somewhere else.  It scares me that, as books disappear, we can't trust anything we read.

I hope Charles will confirm but, as I understand it, hypoid gear oils are really intended for gears where sliding contact is dominant, like worm drives and skew gears.  Since the Norton box has straight cut gears, hypoid gear oils aren't needed anyway, and we might as well use engine oil just as the manufacturer stated.

I'm trying to think where a hypoid gear oil might be a benefit, and the only place I can think of is the worm drive to the oil pump.  And that's in engine oil anyway.

Neil - any more news on your bike?  Sounds like it's sorted?

Hi Neil,

A small but often overlooked element in the starting procedure of most bikes and not only Norton is that when cracking open the throttle a little prior to kickstarting is to make sure that you hold the front brake lever in. The reason for this is to prevent the throttle being rotated round too much so as to excessively lift the carburettor  slide . One sees many motorcyclists rotating the throttle automatically far too much as they operate the kickstart lever. 

The choke is on when the lever is moved anticlockwise . Shortly after firing up my Dominator 99 I rotate the lever fully clockwise to the fully open position.

George

If  you look at the technical sheet on this oil, you will note that it is a GL4 quality product. As such it is almost certainly different in formulation from the product recommended by Norton all those years ago

hello Now your all missing the point GL4 and GL5 are not suitable for Norton Gearboxes  Has Norton Gearbox are not under extreme presser, And the Gears has Brass Or Bronze Sleeve type bushing known as yellow metals, And in the last 10 years   Castrol have formulated a GL3  oil for Classic and Vintage Cars and Motorcycles known as ST90  Now see castors own data sheet  below        yours anna j

By what evidence do you claim that GL4/5 oils are unsuitable for Norton gearoxes ?

  If, as the equipment  manufactures agree, the ASTM D130 copper corrosion test included in the API sequences ensures that there is no risk to bushes etc in their gearboxes, and that the requirements for GL4/5 are higher than those for the obsolete earlier specifications. Why would they not be suitable for use in Norton gearboxes ?

As I said earlier, their is a lot of misinformation out there on the net.

Hello So Castrol's own date sheet is disinformation then is this what you are now saying and GL3 ST90 is no good at all then. And you lot know better then Castrol at make these oils I rest my case.   Yours. Anna j 

Anna

Norton themselves recommended EP90 (it says so in my factory workshop manual!)  So you disagree with the actual makers of our bikes as well!

It says in on the spec sheet of Castrol ST90 that it is 'For gearboxes and differentials where a non low EP gear oil specified'

One might wonder if Castrol marketed ST90 to cater to the paranoia surrounding this and so shift/sell on a lower spec oil.  

I'd be a bit worried about putting ' Fairy new type of gearbox oil' in my gearbox. 

Fairies know less about making gear oil than my dog!  

As stated above Castrol offer both GL3 and GL4 products for 'classic applications' As to knowing more than Castrol. This is simply a silly remark since it is not Castrol who state ,erroneously, that GL4 /5 oils are not suitable for Norton gearboxes. As the tribologistfor the company from whom they bought the additive formulations used in their oils, I had excellent relations with them on the proffesional level. As to ,they are now part of BP  and  now are not the company who formulated oils in the 50's.

P.S. you ignorred my point about evidence of harm and why ASTM D130 is not guarantee of non corrosion of bushes.

hello so you need more proof that oil additives in EP oils  are corrosive to yellow metals now see pdfs 

Anna 

Again have you read that article? or have you just skimmed it for evidence? I suspect the latter.  The following paragraphs are copied from the first page.

'History: The gear oils of a few decades ago had lead additives that were effective at wear reduction, but not very good for the environment. A long time ago they began to be replaced by gear oils with a phosphorous additive (in itself a decent anti-wear additive) with active sulfur to grip hold of the gears and create a very solid sacrificial layer of material that could be worn off, thereby protecting the gear surface. Eventually it was discovered that the active sulfur was causing corrosion of brass and other soft metals used in differentials and transmissions. Somewhere around 30 years ago a deactivated or buffered sulfur was developed that would react with the phosphorous to create the protective/sacrificial layer in the conditions created in the gear boxes (temperature and pressure) without being corrosive to the brass, copper, etc. This additive system is used in most gear oils today. The problems arise when we try or need to use the same product in the transmission that we use in the differential. Many people have called oil companies and been told by the “Techs” that answer their questions that their oils have buffered sulfur and therefore are not corrosive to yellow metals, so their GL-5 oils can be used with brass components. While that answer is totally correct, it does not address the question asked: Can I use your GL-5 in my synchromesh transmission?

 Stick to putting your Fairy oil in your manxman, It actually might fly!   Not!

I detect a reaction here that is a little upsetting for new members to experience. I live in farming countryside, and one oil fits all in old tractors, nobody cares as long as it runs. Fence wire and baling twine do most repairs, the only blot on the horizon are the Green Loonies trying to save the Planet with their windmills and solar panels. In all old Nortons, engines that go round are a bonus. We should be gratefull that there are no nasty modern things they call computers. Imagine the forum pages that would be taken up with computer faults.

I love technical stuff, so oil used to be Castor Oil, nasty smelly and causes cancer in anyone who lives too long. All the WW1 pilots got covered in it and were too black and slippery to catch by the Germans. They all suffered a side effect commonly known as the screaming trots. This particular oil is very good for ancient engines and gearboxes, but it oxidises and forms a nasty coatng when hot, lovelly smell, and makes your old sidevalve Norton ten miles an hour faster, and black inside! They won the TT on it, didn't they. Then whales donated their Blubber (fat) to the public, this makes steam engines go round and up and down, its very smelly, and gives you Cancer. It was used to make your rattly old Norton on the machine tools. All the modern stuff is made from Bones (fossils), thats what the Greens tell us. Now as we are saving the ungrateful Planet, oil is made from treated eco unfriendly gas. So as everything is made from something the Planet supplies, we should be grateful that someone somewhere has put all this together and made something of use for us to argue about. It is of course your old Norton Motorcycle, and some engines power your old farm tools too. Have a nice day everyone.

I'm new on here, joined today. Joined as I have bought a Model 7. I had one when I was 18, and had to sell 52 years ago.

Now I have a few bikes 2  Enfields, 3 BSA's, an Arrow and the above, my youngest bike is a 1967 registed C15, oldest being a M20 registered as 1950

I have been on a lot of forums looking for info and help.

Judging by the argument over oil on this thread, it's not looking hopefull `I will get much joy on this site!  I use straight 40 in all my bikes except the arrow!

Daniel...please don't be concerned about heated arguments about oil here! Every old motorcycle forum has the same thread turning up time after time whenever someone raises the question. Older contributors don't often dare to start a new thread about oil unless they are very bored indeed (which is one of our problems at present).  When someone does, the very first reply is often an exclamation of delight such as "Good! Yet another oil thread!" It's not confined to the NOC. In this one we haven't even got going on monograde vs multistage...use search facility to follow that one if you have lots of time on your hands!

I hope you enjoy your Norton!

Impossible to kick. Something obstructing. Might be petrol. Partially filling the cylinders.

Like on a Gardner carb where opening throttle on a not running motor drench the engine.

There's  no accelerator pump on an Amal, so opening the throttle too quickly is more likely to lead to too much air rather than too much fuel.  So I don't see any reason for riders to blip the throttle when standing still.  The engine is much happier with the throttle being opened slowly.  Unless to clear oily plugs.

If the float needle on an Amal don't closes, petrol could enter the combustion chamber.

When the bike is impossible to kick. If you remove spark plugs, can you kick it? In that case is something coming out of the plug holes? If it still is impossible to kick, something bad has happened. Can you kick it when the  clutch is pulled?

With the bike in gear and the stand up, when you push the bike does the engine rotate?