Ethanol?

It is the flexible fuel pipes which are my big concern, less so the metal components. I have had several fail, fortunately without a fire ensuing, although what detritus was dragged down through the engine from them before their deterioration became apparent, I have no idea.

Interesting, Ian. We all have (and have read) lots of opinions but don't see many experiments. I wonder if they corrode at the random points of contact between different metals?

When I was assembling my BSA I hadn't got any proper petrol pipe so I used clear plastic brewers pipe, which has been on for severn years with no ill effect.

On the other hand, when the fuel gauge on my 1984 Austin stopped working I found the tank sender was badly corroded /dissolved. But it was 32 years old by then.

On my freinds remote farm they have a bulk load once a year of standard petrol into a plastic bulk tank, which doesn't go "off" over the year.

Just my tup n worth. 

I think most of the corrosion of metals occurs when the liquids have largely  evaporated and air gets to the  remains. The inside of my monoblock chamber  has deep pits. I suspect that other unknown elements in the fuel are also a problem.  

It's not just the petrol feed pipe to be concerned about.  Also the plastic float, float needle, fuel filter.  I choose to use brass floats, but they can have their own problems, such as dents and cracks

Paul

I have changed all of the rubber fuel lines on my Norton which had perished and become sticky in only ten to twelve months. I only use Esso and BP petrol now, which I understand have smaller amounts of Ethanol than supermarket fuel. I have noticed that after a winter layup of around three to four months the bike is very hard to start.

Ethanol does not seem to attack metals in my experience, but does leave residue/ brown lacquer in the bottom of the float bowl after the petrol evaporates which seems to partially block up jets on start up when the residue gets disturbed. So if there is not a problem with Ethanol in petrol, how is it that many of my friends with classic bikes and modern bikes, are coming to me with blocked jets in their carburettors to use my ultrasonic cleaner.

I do not remember a single instance in the 50s and 60s of problems like this, and now the government are hell bent on increasing the amount of Ethanol.

I think one of the main problems with ethanol in petrol is that ethanol is hygroscopic (it attracts water vapour and pulls it out of the air), this water then settles out of the petrol/ethanol mix and always settles to the lowest point - which is the bottom of the tank, rapidly followed by going straight into the carburettor. 

So it is the water that is doing the damage and corrosion to metal parts and jets and not the ethanol per se.

I believe the current regs are '' can contain upto'' if it was compulsory we would need to import the stuff, which does not make sense.

There are also two concoctions of ethanol fuel. Some will encounter the stuff at the international rally as the Dutch use a different type of brew, can't remember why though. 

The current UK fuel no matter what it contains leaves a nasty dust behind in the carb, which plays havoc with the carbs if left standing.

Even alloy tanks are now known to suffer, not so much the material but the actual welds are attacked.

I suspect the other additives have some play in the problems, just how do they get the forecourt stuff to run the high compression ratios we see, some now running really high. 

Just to pick up on the point Bob makes (the problem is water), bear in mind that the outlet from the tank is via the tap connector which protrudes up inside the tank so there would have to be a lot of water in there before it were drawn into the carb. 

George

If it was 95 octane, so called "super" unleaded then you can't be sure how much, or if any at all, ethanol is in it. You need to use ordinary unleaded as a test because that will almost certainly contain 5% ethanol.

Ian

Ian.... I do remember Cleveland Discol and it did contain Ethanol and I also know that Henry Ford ran a car on 100% Ethanol . However. That does not explain that the majority of people in the classic car and motorcycle world think there is a problem with Ethanol in the present day.

I take your point that petrol is very complex issue but I stick to what I said in my earlier post:-

" I do not remember a single instance in the 50s and 60s of problems like This"

In the 50's and 60's we used our bikes daily The fuel was therefore always fresh, it got used up quickly and did not have a chance to absorb moisture, even if it did contain ethanol, like Cleveland Discol. We didn't keep bikes for years, and if we bought one and a fuel pipe looked a bit dodgy we just changed it. Now, we don't use them much, fuel sits around in them, most fuel contains ethanol, so the issue is different these days. 

Let us not be in denial about ethanol. It is a solvent, it will damage the petrol-proof paint on your fuel tank if it remains in contact, it does dissolve fuel pipes, and bikes do catch fire.

Does anyone know if it is still possible (2019) to buy petrol that does not contain ethanol?

If it is indeed available it might be nice to compile a list of petrol brands/grades that are ethanol free.

I am investigating the possibility of doing long journeys and avoiding ethanol, ready for when I get my Commando back on the road.

Last year, I laid the bike up (heated wooden shed) over winter with fuel in the tank and it was running fine. Came to start it a few months later and it wouldn't go. Tried checking sparks and blocked jets but still no joy. The Boss suggested it might need fresh petrol, so I emptied the tank, bought a gallon of fuel and it started 3rd kick. I have no idea why it did that, but I have bought and use an ethanol removal additive and the bike is starting with half a kick every time.

Just my experience. :-)

I believe petrol in the UK is seasonally adjusted. 

My neighbor came to me with his Harley a few years back with a fuel leak . At the time the bike was perhaps 3 yrs old, if that. I found the source of the leak was the clear plastic line from the tank . The entire line was weeping. Upon closer examination a perfect helix could be seen around the length of the line . Apparently this tubing is manufactured by wrapping flat material around a mandrel in a helical fashion and fusing it . When new this seam is invisible but the fuel had attacked it and softened it and the seam itself was determined to be the source of the leak. I had a piece of solid black fuel line which I put on for him as a temporary replacement and I suggested that he take the bike to the dealership and have all the plastic fuel components checked which he never did - that temporary line is still on as far as I know . 

As well as the ethanol issue modern fuels are formulated for injection vehicles so they contain less volitile components ie the bits that evaporate and allow a cold carbed engine to start. So they start off with less and so it evaporates through the tank cap breather over winter. Either use fresh fuel and stick the old stuff in your injected car or add some paint thinners and shake the tank before opening the tap to the carb. I use the paint thinners trick and no longer have to dump and replace in the spring. The other trick is to put some tape over the filler cap breather in the autumn and remember to remove it in the spring.

Ethanol-free fuel availability.

As Rob stated previously, our only option for ethanol-free fuel was Esso Synergy Supreme + Super unleaded 97 octane. apart from in Devon, Cornwall, Teeside and Scotland.. I have just returned to Cornwall from a trip I make to Sussex 3 or 4 times a year, when I take a couple of jerry cans with me to fill up with said fuel. This time however, the Esso station on the A27 Chichester by-pass clearly has it marked 'E5'. On to the next one, the Emsworth Services, just over the border in Hampshire; also marked 'E5'. On to the A35 past Ringwood in Dorset; the same. I gave up after checking the Esso station just past Wimborne Minster, also in Dorset; also 'E5'.

I cannot imagine they would mark it so, if it did not contain ethanol. They have not done so previously. It therefore looks as though the game is up, at least in the south, as well as the south-west of the country.

Is it the same elsewhere?

Ian

Under new regs that came in this month, you will find all petrol pumps labelled as E5 & diesel as B7 - this does not mean it actually contains 5% ethanol but may do so - all very confusing!

It is odd that there is a requirement to label something, even though the product does not fit the description. It is a bit like 'May contain nuts'...............

When buying my last batch on a previous trip to Oxford, I did not check the label on the pump. What I did soon notice after using it was the paint started to peel off inside the filler mouth. It was patrol-proof paint, but not ethanol-proof. I am not sure if there is such a thing, as ethanol is a solvent. I suspect that batch contained ethanol.

The supply of ethanol-free fuel is running out, and can no longer be relied upon. In recent times Esso, BP & Murco super-unleaded fuels were all ethanol-free. First Murco fell by the wayside, them BP. I suspect Esso is following suit.

Next year, E10............

The new labeling system is just that, ''may contain' The UK would need to import or specifically produce ethanol to add to fuel so pretty much a non stater here in the UK, despite the hype. The ethanol import quantities can be found on the HMRC website.

The other is that many delivery contractors do not like delivering fuel that contains ethanol as the tanker can't be reused for other non ethanol compatible types of fuel unless it is cleaned and dried prior to the next top up. 

Ethanol idea was a good one, but realistically we don't produce enough as a by product to make it work, and why ship from the continent when they can use it there to meet their targets and relief for using it in their own fuel. 

Strangely, the Dutch use a different type of ethanol fuel to the rest of Europe. There are also reports of the ethanol fuel now attacking alloy tanks, the welds are the point of failure when using ethanol fuel, though it takes some time.

IPersonally I think it’s project fear! it is highly unlikely that ethanol, which no doubt is the favoured tipple of many club members, is responsible for corroding anything, especially Aluminium, it’s far more likely to be other additives or poor welding/vibration. My strimmer, hedge cutter and lawn mower all have fuel in all winter and todate have always started in the spring!  But it doesn’t stop me emptying the tanks of my bikes if they are being laid up for a bit (or being robbed to put in the above mentioned lawn mower!)

oh and I bought a Bantam that wouldn’t run, after much pushing and kicking we cleared out the gummed up jets and it ran sweetly after that, that was in about 1975, so petrol could gum up carbs then - the Bantam cost £6 btw. I had to sell my air rifle to pay for it. 

dan