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Intermittent Alton starter

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Not sure whether this should be in the Electrical forum, but here goes.

I fitted an Alton starter kit to my MkIIA nine years ago, and apart from shredding the three plastic rods (now replaced by six) in the backfire device early on, it has worked so reliably that I've removed the kickstart. However, recently it has occasionally failed to turn the engine over on the first attempt. I have electronic instruments which sweep the needles on a self-test when the ignition is first switched on, and when I release the starter button after a failed start attempt (it just gives a grunt as if it's being balked by the compression) the instruments self-test again as if the ignition has been switched off and on again. The starter then usually works normally. This can happen whether the engine is hot or cold. The battery is an Exide AGM 18Ah 230 amp CCA just over a year old, and is kept on a CTEK charger in rotation with my two other bikes.

I'm concerned that this might be the start of a developing fault that will one day leave me stranded, so can anyone suggest what might be the cause?

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Battery? Or possible the main battery leads connectors have gone high resistance.
CTEK charger NOT to be trusted.

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The battery was new in April 2023, and the fault sometimes occurs straight after I've taken it off the CTEK showing fully charged. I'll check the battery leads and connections. Most of the time it starts OK though.

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If Al's suggestion brings you no result try and bypass the solenoid assuming one is fitted on the Alton system.

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Your CTEK smart charger is not able to take your battery to it's full capacity if you keep the battery on the bike while charging.

The Zener diode, or aftermarket reg/rec (if fitted) tend to prevent a smart charger from being able to condition a battery properly as the regulator setpoint won't let the battery charge fully.

The result is the battery life will be massively shortened.

When you replace your dead battery, try charging your new one off the bike and see if this helps matters.

It has an A-Reg voltage regulator, not a Zener any more, but the charger connects directly to the battery terminals (the same on all my bikes), so where does the voltage regulator come in?
I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe my electrical understanding is deficient. In fact, no maybe about it!

Because the reg/rec is controlling the maximum voltage whether your charger is connected to the battery terminals or not.

You smart charger doesn't know there is a reg/rec there, so will trickle charge for forever which dries out and sulfates the battery rather than conditions it like it tells you in the instruction manual.

Imagine a kitchen sink with two overflows one above the other - the top one (the charger) will never get wet because the bottom one (the reg/rec) is controlling the height of the water (the charge)

This is Interesting, I've heard quite a few times of batteries going west after being hooked up to a smart charger/ battery maintainer, and now some sort of an explanation. Question, would the rec/reg get warm? or is the current so small that it would not be felt (with the fingers?)  and how would a zener equipped bike cope?      

That's why I fitted a master switch which isolates the main system when I connect the charger, as shown below. Switch is 3-position with centre OFF.
Stan

master switch

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The battery used on this bike WAS 18Ahr but it is no longer! You can try to charge it how you like but you will NOT get 18Ahr from it again. Batteries are biscuit barrels ie you refill them when you eat the biscuits! BUT you are refiling them with the biscuits in the packet, eventually the biscuit barrel is full of empty PACKET it cannot hold biscuits.
The only way to to be able to say the battery is FULLY charged is to charge it properly for a good time, then discharge it (as far as you can) to see what Ahr you had in it. (this is a tricky job)
Your 18Ahr battery MIGHT only have 10Ahr left.
Do NOT believe automatic lamps on modern battery chargers.
In this particular case just one terminal having gone high resistance will stop the starter/battery.performing.
And you no longer have 18Ahr!

In reply to by alan_osborn

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I don't eat that many biscuits in 16 months, but maybe it's already time for a new battery. 
I don't think McVities make batteries, but what's recommended?
Yuasa, Banner, Motobatt are alternatives I've found so far, and to be fair, the Exide was a lot cheaper than these.

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Yuasa is a very good battery but of course expensive, but can you be sure you are dealing with the original Yuasa?
Motobatt seem to be good and usable.
Exide was a good maker of these things but the name has been stuck on another 'biscuit' barrel.
Stan's switch is ok but you do not need a centre off, a changeover switch will do. Adding switches and connectors to the bike will increase the chance of failure so pulling out the fuse and connect the battery charger just to the battery wire will suffice.

Yes Al, I agree with your comments but - it is fitted to a Navie and there was no way to stop someone from just starting up and riding off with it. So I fitted the 'hidden' switch so I could isolate the electrics to make it a wee bit harder and had that switch to hand.  

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I have been taking an interest in this topic from the beginning and was mildly alarmed to read about battery minder/chargers etc not doing what I expect it to be doing such as prolonging my bike batteries life especially the large one that turns my Commando over!
Intrigued by Grant Tiller's post regarding this subject below.
 I took a reading of my battery voltage as it had been on charge via the Optimate 4 charger since coming back from the Manx last Saturday, reading fully charged was 13.45v.
Removed earth lead from battery, replaced the Optimate to the battery to then see if any more volts could be witnessed on the Avo 8 meter, in fact the meter reading was fractionally less by .15v!
As a back up I took all readings with a quality digital meter which gave a similar outcome give or take a decimal point or two.
This set up is over 18 months old, re'conned dynamo new electronic regulator, new battery new Optimate, gives me a bright headlight and a healthy reading on the ammeter, spark at the plugs,all looks good.
Yesterday I sent Optimate an abridged version of my concerns about what I am reading on this forum topic. As yet no response so far.

  

""Submitted by Grant Tiller on Tue, 10/09/2024

In reply to Battery charging by Rob Bradley

Because the reg/rec is…

Because the reg/rec is controlling the maximum voltage whether your charger is connected to the battery terminals or not.

You smart charger doesn't know there is a reg/rec there, so will trickle charge for forever which dries out and sulfates the battery rather than conditions it like it tells you in the instruction manual.

Imagine a kitchen sink with two overflows one above the other - the top one (the charger) will never get wet because the bottom one (the reg/rec) is controlling the height of the water (the charge)""

 

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On the subject of the regulator/rectifier interfering with the float charger, though I freely admit I don't have the electrical knowledge to understand why that should be, I'd just point out that the previous battery lasted 8 years with this allegedly harmful charging routine. Similarly, my Dommie battery lasted nearly 11 years, and my Tiger 800 battery 7 years so far, and it wasn't new when I bought the bike. All have been on the CTEK charger in rotation. I don't believe 8 years is a short life for a motorcycle battery.

However, 16 months is, if Al is right in assuming a dead battery is the cause. But could there be other causes? I'm thinking starter motor brushes or commutator, for example, but I expect there are other possibilities. I need to find someone with a battery tester next, before chucking £100+ at a new premium battery.

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Since it fails on the first push of the button, then will likely start on the second, I suppose the obvious thing to try is a jump from a car battery on a cold morning. That'll tell you whether it's the battery or something else.
But it does sound like a battery on it's way out - looks like it's fully charged but not delivering enough juice. Can go on for many months like that before it calls it quits. Time to refit the kickstart, or practise bump starts.

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Your battery sounds fine. I have just changed the brushes in my Alton for the second time in 10 years. Petrol from tickled carbs can find it's way in and shorten brush life, a smear of silicone sealant can help on reassembly. Replacement brush sets are available on Ebay. Easy enough to check and change. Only other electrical issue I've had is cable coming loose on solinoid so no biscuits required only for the cuppa when the job is done :-)
Best regards, Al.

Sorry about the delay in continuing this thread but I've been riding/fettling my Dommie a lot and haven't had time to play with the Commando.

If you've changed your brushes twice in 10 years and I haven't changed mine once in nine years, maybe that's the answer. I searched eBay and came up with a Mitsuba starter brush plate - is that what you meant?
When you say solenoid, I presume you mean the relay that sits on top of the battery. It has a couple of wires that sprout flimsily out of the body of the thing and look as if they'd break off easily. They're okay on mine but I've cable tied them to the thick leads so they can't flap about and break.
I prevent petrol from dripping onto the starter with a chrome drip tray as used on BSA A7/A10s (I have a single carb).

I've heard about fake Yuasa batteries before, so maybe Motobatt would be the way to go if I do need a new one. I had the Exide tested at a garage that used a thing with two big sprung probes with a resistance and a meter between them, and it apparently held up quite well under load, but I'm not sure what the load was. So maybe not a conclusive test.

 

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I mentioned the relay as a potential problem due to the internal contacts taking the high amperage during starting procedures therefore arcing produces pitting and this in turn can lead to a high resistance between the two contacts.
If you can dismantle the solenoid it should be possible to emery the four  faces and clean them up sufficiently for you to start the motor and prove a point.
It goes without saying that all of the connections need to tight to and from the heavy  starter cables.

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ALTON NORTON COMMANDO ELECTRIC START CONVERSION MITSUBA STARTER - BRUSH PLATE from Nipponautomotive.
I have also replaced the solenoid (relay) with a generic Japanese one but also first check the thick cable connections haven't vibrated loose or corrosion hasn't worked it's way in there.
Your battery sounds fine.

Best regards, Al.

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A belated follow-up if anyone's still watching.
I came to the conclusion that the fault, if it is a fault, is not obvious, is intermittent and not quickly worsening, so I'll wait and see if anything develops.
I wonder if it's as simple as where the pistons ended up when the engine was last stopped - if it's just coming up to compression, might the starter not have quite enough oomph to turn it over without taking a run at it, as it were?
A friend who has been building bikes for years for customers did an Alton conversion once, and says he had my exact same "fault" from day one, and his advice was not to worry about it.
I do still wonder though why mine has only just started doing it after several years. Maybe it's a combination of several small deteriorations in some of the components mentioned above, and maybe my friend started with a slightly dodgy battery, or something..

Anyway, I'm now onto the next electrical fault, which is more serious but equally mysterious. I'll put that one in the electrical forum this time.

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From the above battery discussion, presumably it is better , if using a modern charger, to use it for a set recharge time, rather than continuous trickle charge?

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One point to note is that you say that your electronic instruments 'reset' after a failed start attempt - this indicates that the bike voltage/current drops so low that the instruments read this as the ignition being turned off and on again. This implies that the Alton starter motor is pulling too much current and not turning over, inducing much (or any) back-EMF to maintain the power sufficient to power the ignition - it could be the motor (brushes etc.) but I personally would suggest the battery (as most others have).
I too have experienced some dodgy 'Smart Chargers'. A couple of Oxford chargers I have previously used were OK but failed after quite short periods. A recent eBay unit I purchased doesn't seem to have a clue! It states that flat batteries are full and vice-versa (even when connected directly to just the battery terminals).

Good Luck.

Thanks for picking up on the instrument reset symptom, Mark, something nobody else has mentioned.
The implication that it's the starter motor pulling too much current makes sense, as much (or as little!) as I understand these things, and I wonder if that could fit with Alan H's comments about brushes needing replacing periodically. My electrical knowledge is not able to explain why worn brushes would pull more current, though, or why they would do this intermittently.

Bear in mind that, even if it fails to start at the first attempt, it usually does go at the second try, so the battery would seem to be good enough, if it can sustain a sudden high current drain and still subsequently turn the motor over.

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Like most other items, starter motors need servicing periodically i.e., stripping, cleaning, and inspecting for wear, not a big job.
Obviously if an Alton starter is to be fitted to a bike, the battery needs upgrading as per the instructions as a standard battery is unlikely to prove very effective and may damage the starter motor if the current is too low.
When stopping my Mk3 Commandos, I always switch off the ignition whilst still in gear, then roll backwards up against compression before selecting neutral. This does give the starter system, specially the sprag, an easier time when next started and also helps reduce wet sumping when leaving the bike for a while as the big ends are at the highest point therefore reducing hydraulic gravitational head.

Best regards Al 

Thanks Alan, I'm coming round to your ideas about starter motor maintenance.

When you say the battery needs upgrading when fitting a starter motor, I presume you mean higher Ah capacity and CCA? The Exide ETX20CH-BS I fitted in April 2023 is 18 Ah and 230A CCA, which I believe is sufficient, when new at least.

Regarding leaving the pistons on compression, I always do this with my Dommie to reduce wet sumping, and did with the Commando pre-Alton. But when kickstarting I always ease the pistons just over compression before kicking. This was particularly important with the Commando, which is what made me think of the Alton starter possibly struggling to get over compression straight away. I don't understand why you say being up against compression gives the starter system an easier time, I would have thought just the opposite.

But it gives me an idea: I'll try easing the engine just over compression by pushing the bike in gear, before operating the starter and see if it makes a difference. (After I find out from the Electrical forum why the main fuse blows even when the bike is stood idle (and not on the smart charger!)).
 

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If you Alton starter fails to turn the bike over, do not keep attempting to do it. If the battery is failing the motor will go full torque as it approaches stall speed and that torque will soon break the welds on the backfire device if 6 plugs are fitted, we see this often and 9 times out of 10 it is the battery. 
There is no way I would leave a battery on trickle charge device no matter how great the maker claims it is, if you have the charger plugged in the wall then buy a Tapo plug so you can set a schedule or switch the charger on and off remotely at times that suit you.  Providing the temperature is not near freezing then a couple of hours once a month is more than enough to preserve the battery in storage or not in use. 

Ashley, it surprised me that you say the welds on the backfire device are prone to failure in a high torque situation. Surely the plastic plugs are designed to break first. Otherwise isn't it a bit like designing a fuse holder that melts before the fuse blows?

I emailed Paul at Alton about my intermittent starting and he did confirm that a failing battery increases the motor torque as you say, but in his words "There is no risk of breaking the weld of the backfire device. This weld bed is far more stronger than the 3 and even 6 polyurethane inserts.At this point we never have had reports of a weld failure since the beginning of the starter kits (2011-2012)".
I'm surprised you haven't contacted Alton about this weld failure if you see it often, I'd expect Paul to be interested, if not concerned.

Paul also thought that my battery, though not old, could be the cause, and I'm not ruling it out.
But as it happens I've just found a current leak with the ignition switched off, through the regulator/rectifier I think, and wonder if this might be relevant to the starter motor struggling. Once I've fixed this I'll think about the battery if the starting doesn't improve.
 

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... might also be suffering from old age, poor connections, eroded contacts. Cheapest item in the chain, and when I replaced mine on Commander a solid start on first push of the button.

 

 



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