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Electra starter

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Having spent far too long on rewiring my Electra - mostly due to poor health - I'm finally getting to grips with the starter. I've looked through previous threads on the subject but am still a little confused.

The starter motor spins over very nicely but only occasionally engages with the sprag clutch. It makes a sound like the old Bendix car starters when the Bendix gear hasn't engaged. So I've taken it all to bits.....

What have I found? There are 3 wave washers, 2 of which are riveted together with the third floating free (but with holes suggesting it was once attached). There is a slightly wavy washer located in the outrigger which I take to be part 24745 wave spring friction plate. I can see that potentially having a floating plate may prevent the pawls from moving correctly.

The pawls show slight signs of wear but look serviceable to me. The pins are not bent and the pawls move freely. The ratchet teeth look OK to me and are fairly sharp edged.

One more query - I can't see the purpose of the thin steel plate covering the end of the ratchet assembly (part 24740?). I propose to omit this and tap a 1/4" Cycle thread in the end of the shaft to facilitate fitting a timing disc. I will use loctite and nyloc nuts on the fixing screws as I can see that if they come adrift it would cause mayhem....

ratchet

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.. have I made a fundamental error assuming the end of the part I propose tapping rotates with the mainshaft?

<edit>Yes indeed I have as I see when I look at it. That part is not attached to the mainshaft at all.</edit>

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Looks to be a lot wrong here. Are you looking for advice on how AMC intended it to be, in which case I can help.

Or do you want to do your own thing as you did with frame spacers and tank mount?

It takes quite a while to fully describe and work through the function of the starter sprag device, all the bits, proper crank bolt and tab washer, and clearances/wear advice. 

Pleased to help if you want. Maybe PM. 

Peter

 

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Adding further to this issue, I have a spare one of these, and the three plates were originally spot welded together. I don't see that pop riveting is a good idea as the whole assembly spins!! and throws the pawls onto the crank and engage and turn it, then of course once the engine/crank is spinning the pawls disengage.This function happening due to the three L shaped slots.
Some of my thoughts (and Peter Hollands) are available on AO Services.co.uk.
We await further developments.

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I have perused the details on Al's website and everything else I can find and think I now have a grasp of how it's supposed to work. It's all much easier when I have the parts in my hand and can see what's going on - I can't find a decent exploded drawing.

I think the pawls are in good enough condition - the pins are firmly attached and unworn, and the pawls rotate freely in the housing. The leading edges are very slightly burred but I don't think enough to stop them working. The ratchet on the crankshaft shows no signs of wear..

Things I'm dubious about:

1. The fixed steel washer is quite distorted. I think it needs to be flat to work effectively. NOC spares list this.
2. The fact I have 3 wave washers. I can see that the unattached one could float and defeat the operation of the pawl pins. I assume the NOC spares washer is a single one?
3. A LOT of oil came out of the primary chaincase - a litre at least. I suspect that the bike has wet sumped having been stored for a number of years and the oil has found its way past the crankshaft oil seal. I do wonder whether the excess oil could have over-lubricated the working parts (perhaps clutching at straws). I need to think about that seal and whether it can be replaced without splitting the cases which I really don't want to do.
4. The chain is very worn and was very slack although I don't think this could have caused the problem I see.

Any suggestions very gratefully received!

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Wave washer as fitted to all Electra is three lamination thick. Spot welded together. This is the only wave washer you can purchase from NOC. 

Your starter chain is a loose fit from new. Suspect AMC intended starter sprocket to be one tooth more. This would have given a snug chain but with less torque at the crank and maybe no good at - 10C cold starts. All Electra were fitted with a rather crude chain tensioner. 

Manuals, not keeping pace with development, show single wave washer, make no reference to the starter chain tensioner you should have, or for that matter the Electra frame strengthening plates. 

Good luck Ian

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 I've ordered a new chain, wave washer and stationary washer from NOC spares - maybe the first was unnecessary! Yes I do have the tensioner which as you suggest is a bit Mickey Mouse. When I assemble the bits I have it's clear how it's supposed to work but when I get the replacements I'll put it together and see what happens.

All good fun eh?

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Hi Peter and Al, thanks for all this invaluable advice and particularly the information sheets about the Electra starter system here and on Al's website which I have downloaded and will be using.   I will be servicing and inevitably renovating my Electra sprag clutch this winter because it has got very random in its engaging.   Happily many of the spares are available through the spares scheme apart from the Pawls.  Has / is the club spares scheme looking into having the Pawls manufactured?    If not is it worth making the formal suggestion or would the demand not match the price of manufacture?   

Keep up the good work, your technical advice is invaluable!   Nick  

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Ian, 

I got a starter mechanism from my squirrel store. Knowing some of the history of your bike, I'd just warn you of a few things. 

24760 washer tab ratchet bolt is only about 1mm thick. NOT MORE. 
24794 ratchet bolt has a much reduced head height. In addition the centre part of the head is counterbored about 1.5mm

The reason for the above details is to ensure no part of the rotating bolt head ever touches the stationary outrigger shaft. Your bolt head looks a bit rubbed to me. 

The inboard end of the outrigger shaft has an external circlip. Behind the circlip is a hardened thrust washer. About 1 ins diameter and 2mm thick. If PO has omitted the thrust washer, or replaced it with a random common washer, you could be in trouble. The thrust washer thickness controls the 'squash' of the wave washer, and the penetration of the pawl pins through the cam slots in the wave washer. Hardened because it interfaces circlip and sprag carrier assembly at up to 1000rpm.

Photo attached may help. These pitfalls could catch the unwary buyer of a bitsa bike. 

Cheers 

Peter

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AHA, having just sorted my 'squirrel' store I am also better informed. This hardened thrust washer is 1.8 mm thick, ID 12.1 OD 25.5 ( in old money about 1") and of course it controls the 'squash' of the waves.   Hmm interesting.
By the way my Pawls on the bike were very worn but suitable welding and grinding got them back into working order. The pin is 4 mm and I used a drill shank-very hard.

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.. My thrust washer is 1.5mm thick and seems to show machining marks on one side. Not sure why. I think I'll try it and if no good will get one made (beyond my capabilities). I can't work out what 24760 and 24794 are from the very poor diagram I have. Are they the nut and washer that hold the ratchet onto the crankshaft?

Waiting for the bits from NOC spares to crack on.....

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...assuming that 24794 is the large bolt that holds the ratchet to the crankshaft end, there are indeed witness marks that it has been contacting the outrigger shaft as you suggest Peter. It was also barely more than finger tight! The tab washer is very thin although I haven't measured it and am unclear about how I could get at it to fold over the bolt head - if indeed that is required.

It's within my ability to turn a recess within the head which I assume will prevent this from happening in future.

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... so have occupied myself making a bush and shim for the floppy Kawasaki prop stand....

Hopefully tomorrow will see a nice little parcel.

Oh, Nick - good lick with yours as well. I'm sure these things can be made to work properly. A pity Edgar Franks was no longer with Norton as he'd have sorted it out!

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... have done a trial fit. The new (endless) chain is much tighter than the old one. The triple wavy washer exerts much more clamping force - with the old ones finger pressure was enough, now I need to use the vice to compress it all. Twice as the chain has to be in place to assemble....

And does it work? Yes indeed. It spins the engine, with plugs installed, very nicely and the sprag engages well. Just out of interest I tried putting a voltmeter across the battery - no load was 12.6v (a little low as it had been standing). With the starter turning the engine over it dropped to just over 10 volts which seems reasonable to me. The battery is a YB9-B AGM Powerline from Tayna - excellent value at £28 inc VAT and delivery. It has CCA of 120 and is 9Ah rating.

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Hi Ian, that is hugely encouraging as I have also just received a similar parcel from the NOC shop with a new triple wave washer which I hope will improve my starter performance which is a bit hit or miss when it comes to the Pawls engaging.   When they do it usually starts almost instantly hot or cold but it often just spins without engaging - a winter maintenance job.   I will be suggesting the club looks in to having new Pawls made.......it is about the only part not available and key to success of the starter!

On a positive note today was a beautiful clear, crisp, dry, sunny day down here in Zummerzet and I took the Electra for a good run and she was going great guns, proving yet again what superb bikes they are.....particularly when accurately timed with Pazon electronic ignition, decent modern 12v batteries and regular, sympathetic maintenance!

Cheers Nick
 

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With only just over 10 volts for the ignition, Boyer equipment will not give reliable sparks. You will need a Pazon set.

By the way, an option not mentioned is just to take the whole heavy starter set off and use the kick start. It's only a 200cc to turn over after all.

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... a Mark 4 Boyer which is said not to be so badly affected by voltage drop. We will see in due course. I didn't think 10 volts was too bad actually.

I agree 200cc isn't much to kick over but (a) it's impossible for me with a replacement knee to lift my leg that far and (b) the reason I sold my ES2 and bought the Electra was that I was increasingly uncertain of my ability to start if I stalled it - particularly at the head of a queue of irate drivers at a traffic light. And I wanted to stay in the Norton community.

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 ... the following when I asked Boyer about this:

"10 volts at the battery terminals when cranking is fine if supply connections feeding the ignition and coils are good, with low electrical losses.
The later MKIV ignition require a minimum of 7.5 volts, the ignition coil sparks get stronger with higher voltage.  
A 21 watt lamp and voltmeter can be connected to the ignition supply to simulate standard ignition coil current. Measuring the voltage across the lamp whilst cranking will test the voltage available for the electronic ignition system during  e-cranking. "

 

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For the record I have a Boyer Bransden ignition on my Electra. It transformed the running, and to facilitate the starting with this electric start I bypassed the original Wipac ignition switch and ammeter using another switch. It then all works, with a single AGM battery under the seat. Cold it starts well but hot it does not as the Sprague will play up when hot. But a tired engine which was designed for 7.5:1 is not too hard to kick up.

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... a key operated ignition switch but modified the wiring so that it only activates a relay that switches the main ignition (and light) feed using decent cable. The leads from the ignition switch are pretty feeble.

 



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