Dear All
I appreciate this topic comes up from time to time but my 1960 Norton Jubilee appears to be a 'wet sumper'. I have read all kinds of advice from new oil pumps to oil valves to taps on sump plugs but what does everyone think?
My bike has not really been anywhere since 1994 but I have changed the oil and still find 1/4 pint of oil in the sump after a couple of days. I am reluctant to fit a non-return valve but would be happy to fit a new sump plug with a drain tap. At least this way I would know that the sump was dry. Can anyone recommend a suitable plug for my Norton or perhaps an even better idea?
Thanks in advance
Why worry?
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Electra wet sumping
If Jubilees are like Electras there is some concern with starting the engine and let the oil pump empty the sump. When I drained my sump after an extended park, I was considerably short of what oil I had added to the tank prior the parking it.
Turns out I was able to drain 1+ liters of oil from the primary chain case. It appears I have a leaking main seal on the drive side. This could cause some engine damage if the engine is run too short of oil in the crankcase.
Does anyone know if I can replace the drive side crankshaft seal without splitting the cases?
Thanks.
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Lightweight wet sumping
I'm with Alan.
They all do it. Leave it long enough and all the oil tank contents will be in the sump.
If you didn't overfill the oil tank, there will be enough air under the pistons to run the engine at low revs. The oil will return to the oil tank in a continuous stream. Can be seen by removing oil filler cap and squinting on with a torch. When the crankcase is cleared of excess oil the flow returning to the oil tank will be discontinuous.
Use larger throttle with a crankcase full of oil and you run the risk of pushing the drive side crankshaft oil seal into the primary drive with raised crankcase pressure.
Best to use them regularly.
Peter
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Thanks
Many thanks to Al and Peter for your valued advice. I purchased my Jubilee last March as a non-runner and I have been slowly fixing and improving the bike. I sorted out the ignition switch which had melted, fitted a new battery, replaced to points with the Pazon electronic kit, bought a 'stay up float' and so on. So now, I have a bike that will tick over and next up will be checking the timing with a strobe. Once I am sure the timing is 100% spot on, then we should be looking at 'happy days'?
I shall not worry about the oil in the sump then. From your comments, I should start the bike, let the engine tick over, remove the oil cap, check for signs of oil being pumped and then check the oil level. Easy on the revs until warmed up. Sounds like a plan plus use the bike more.
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My experience
Having a number of running bikes. Some wet sump much, other less. I note the oil level when they have been ridden. Then check before next start how much level has dropped. If needed I drain the sump. Seen a for sale Norton blow the crank oil seal some years ago.Has forgotten twice to open a tap. Luckily on a roller bearing crankshaft bike. All depends on how often you use the bike. If not used at all during winter, I recommend draining.
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Just remember to check oil…
Just remember to check oil level and top it up shortly after a run. Don't refill the oil tank if lots of the oil is inside the engine.
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Checking oil level
How do you check oil level? Very easy. Remove oil cap, can middle finger touch oil? (after running of course) If it can you have enough!
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Elf'n'safety Al, that oil…
Elf'n'safety Al, that oil will be hot!
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De Luxe dip stick
Ian,
Your photo suggests that you have a Navigator de-luxe. With rear fairing.
If you are lucky you will still have the original oil filler cap 22057 which has a dipstick. No oily finger for you.
Those of us with less luxurious lightweights have soft fingernails.
Peter
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Navigator ?
Hi All
I had always assumed that my bike was a Jubilee? Now I am confused. The original oil cap is still fitted with the dipstick attached so checking the level is easy.
My bike was first registered in April 1960, the engine/chassis numbers seem to be correct starting 'R17'. The bike began life as a blue/dove grey machine but received a complete overhaul in 1993/94 and change of colour to red.
I have attached another or two but I need to read up on the difference between the two models?
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Jubilee or Navigator
Hi Ian.
Your pictures very much suggest it is a Jubilee, the forks are lightweight as used on the Franny B, and the head mounting is jubilee not Navigator, the frame mounting and clamp are different. We all suffer from wet sumping on Nortons some more than others, I always drain the sump if the tank level has lowered a lot while standing. Looks a nice bike, happy riding.
Peter F.
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Draining sump
For years I have been draining the sump as it makes starting easier and stops the engine smoking and sooting up plugs , recently I have stopped the procedure before the oil rush slows. My thinking is that leaving some oil in the sump is usefull as the crank can pick it up and give the cam and piston skirts some much needed splash on start up where we are told the most wear occurs . Why did I not think of this before???.
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Thanks
Many thanks for all for your wise words and thoughts. It is reassuring to know that so much help and advice is out there and we can have these conversations.
Good to confirm that my bike is a Jubilee. I read up on the finer details and the forks are a bit of a 'giveaway'. Still, I am hoping that with the Pazon ignition fitted, TDC checked using a tool (thanks Andy) and then strobed.....we can look forward to some rides. Breakdown cover set up just in case though.
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Is it a Jubilee?
Several giveaways - Forks & frontwheel suggest a Jubilee (but a Navi engine could be shoehorned in) - so not definitive.
However, the engine size can be determined by the Head Steady arrangement, as Navi differs in that department - & yours has the Jubilee setup
PLUS, if you count the fins on your barrel, you have 5, whereas a Navi has 6
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Drive side crank seal
The short answer is 'yes'.
How? Best get a manual.
What you might find?
Seal has blown out of housing because of raised crankcase pressure and outer bore of seal housing not peened in 3 places.
Worn seal.
Holes have been drilled through the crankcase to permit drift access to back face of roller main for removal. If visible outside the seal, the only cure is to plug these holes - somehow.
Happy fettling Ron
Peter Holland
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Drive side crank seal
WOW!
Thanks, Peter.
Looking at those possibilities, I am definitely hoping for a worn seal. : )
I'm ordering the seal today. Will get to it this fall/early winter.
I will keep you up to date.
Ron
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Start the engine let it pump it all back to the tank. Then top up the tank as needed.