Yesterday I collected a trailer load of bits that are purportedly a dismantled Norton 650SS. Today I've started to sort through what I bought and look at numbers. The frame number, which I located eventually on the left side swinging arm mounting plate, was very difficult to read but I believe the vertical digits are "105642". There are what looks like two character horizontally above that number, the first looks like a "1", the second could be anything, but for the moment I'm going to assume that it's "8". .
That is potentially good news as the crankcase has "18 SS/105642/P" stamped into it.
This is my first Norton project so I'm not familiar with Norton numbering systems. Could anyone confirm for me that the frame and crankcase are from the same original machine, that it is indeed a 650SS and hazard a guess at to the year of manufacture ?
Very many thanks, John
Hi John, ’18’ makes it a…
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Interesting Model
John......your 650SS is probably going to have an interesting history to it. This machine being one of the first of the Plumstead models following the closure of production at Bracebridge in January 1963. My guess being that it came out of Plumstead between March and May 1963. Production of both the 650 and 750 models were beset with problems due to machining issues. Dozens of crankcase and cylinder head castings having to be thrown away due to this.
Adding to the fun and games, the Plumstead records for Norton bikes are just terrible from 1963 onwards. There are gaps everywhere within them and hardly any of the details that Bracebridge included in their Factory Ledgers. Important facts such as tank colour and number of carburettors often not being recorded alongside the engine/frame number. Despite the crankcase 18SS identifier your Norton could possibly be a 650 Standard model. See attachments.
You could try the NOC Librarian for help with discovering the history of your Norton but don't hold your breath.
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Thanks, gentlemen
Thanks, Gentlemen.
I can see that this one is going to be fun. Whilst it is my first Norton, it isn't my first restoration. I have three AMC machine and two Meriden Triumphs under my belt.
Having had a chance to look at what I've got, the rolling chassis is, of course, the main "component" and that looks to be sound. I have a "matching numbers" crankcase but no internals. There is also a lot of stuff that comes from different machine. I have a complete engine (number "650SS 2042"), two complete AMC gearboxes, one with a number "N10485", one with no obvious number. I also have two totally different primary drives. A pressed steel chain case (inner and outer) and a cast aluminium inner and outer. Two clutches, an AMC 3 spring, single row chain and a diaphragm spring clutch with a triplex primary chain. Plus a load of other stuff I've yet to sort out!
Let the fun begin....
John
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Good project. You have…
Good project. You have ready ‘colour’ coded mudguards, petrol tank and wheel rims, so will not need to touch them!!!!
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Looks like your crankcases…
Looks like your crankcases were stamped up by the same drunken bloke as mine!
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Engine identification...
Learned bretheren,
I crave your indulgence and help... As mentioned in the first post, I have a frame and a set of bare crankcase halves with matching numbers "18 SS/105642/P". I also acquired at the same time, a seemingly complete engine. The plan was to rebuild an engine using the original, matching numbers crankcase and the internals from the donor engine. However, I'm not sure exactly what the complete engine is. It has two sets of numbers stamped into the crankcase. At the rear of the engine, just below the barrel on the drive side, it's stamped "650SS 2042". At the front of the engine, just below the barrel on the drive side, it's stamped "104760 18". Is that usual? If so, which is the engine number?
Another thing... Looking at the exploded view / parts list for the engine on the Andover Norton website, the 650cc twin only seems to have a single row primary chain. The engine I have has a triplex engine sprocket fitted. I believe that the Commando has a triplex primary drive but was the 650SS ever fitted with one?
Thanks in advance for any help and insights into this engine offered
John
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This is going to be fun!
Two sets of handlebars. Good start. The single row primary chain and tin case are the right ones. Looks like some one had the idea of fitting the Commando P drive. This means a shorter chain case (chain) and diaphragm clutch. The gearbox clutch shaft needs changing. The gear box then sits closer to the engine. This stops the stand spring from working properly and requires fresh engine plates-oh and a longer rear chain. The pivot point of the gearbox drive sprocket moves forward from the swinging arm pivot point, reducing rear chain life (not very crucial) and there is no 'cush drive' between the engine and rear tyre! Would seem disadvantageous but apart from a quick down gear change locking up the rear wheel momentarily no bother. The deeper triplex sprocket will push the alternator rotor away from the engine, will the crankshaft be long enough?Not forgetting the sleeve nut to hold the rotor on. All good fun!
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Its pretty obvious you have…
Its pretty obvious you have most of the hard to find bits to build a standard bike (the most valuable) even the rusty mudguards will be fine as filled and painted black they will be a little known factory option. It wont be a rare bike ,but could be one of the best.
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Err... wow. That was quick…
Err... wow. That was quick. Thank you. Amongst the bits in the boxes I have inner and outer tin chain case halves and a complete AMC 3 spring clutch. I also have a set of somewhat butchered cast alloy chain case halves and a complete diaphragm clutch (I don't know how that works. Never seen one before!!)
I will endeavour to build this as close to standard as possible, but it will be a bike that's ridden, not trailered around shows, so I reserve the right to make make modifications for the sake of safety and reliability.
John
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Everyone...
... has that right despite what the purists say. Your clutch & alloy chaincases sound like Commando to me.
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A Gearbox Question (or two).
Gentlemen and Ladies,
I have a question or two regarding AMC gearboxes. I have two that came with all the other stuff. As mentioned earlier, one has a number on it, prefixed with the letter "N". If I understand things correctly, this would indicate that the gearbox was manufactured before 1963 as from '63 onwards, the prefix became "NA".... so it's possible as this is the original gearbox for the bike (possible built in early '63). So far so good. I've completely dismantled this box and it will be rebuilt with new bearings, oil seals, springs etc.
The second gearbox is un-numbered but it does have an identifier. There is a tiny "breather jet" screwed into the inner cover, adjacent to the cable entry. Now, again... if I've got thins correct, this was only added from 1975, when the gearboxes were fitted to the MK3 Commando. That this is a Commando gearbox is further reinforced by the fact that the top mounting boss is about 1/8" narrower than the other gearbox.
First question... Am I right in my assumptions, regarding these boxes?
Second question... Can I rebuild the internals of the later gearbox (including inner and outer covers) into the older case with the number stamped onto it?
Forgive me if I'm being an idiot...
John
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Boxes
It seems to me that it’s likely the early dommy box could have had an easier life than the commando , the only real improvement on the later box would be the kickstart spring mounting which I think involved inner cover and kickstart shaft / spring . I would want to use those parts if possible
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One small point...
One small point, the main shaft out of the 'commando' box, does the have a thin groove behind the clutch, with a fine cir-clip in it if you are lucky. If so this is a commando box. Considering there being a commando clutch and Primary drive in 'this kit' then then you can see what was in the last owners mind?
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Hi John,
’18’ makes it a 650
’105xxx’ probably makes it a late1962 or 1963 model.
’P’ is for ‘Plumstead’, I believe, when Norton moved to become part of the AMC group.
Of course, there are plenty of people out there with far more knowledge than me, but the above is my interpretation of your bike number.
Hope that helps
Good luck with your project.
Regards
Tony