Original registration

When I bought my 99 project (1960) in 2010 it came with the green continuation log book and the last tax disc....The two pieces of info required, or so I thought.

DVLC would not accept the 1975 tax disc, but fortunately I took a photo of the rear end with original number on it after purchase. This they accepted so original number retained.

PS:  All my bikes are male, with the exception of my 16h, due to starting issues.

Good luck with the history trail.

... they've tightened up quite a lot since then. I was able to do similar with an NSU Quickly I restored about the same time (not a particularly sensible idea!). They are stricter now because of theft I believe.

There is a long shot, if you know the local authority it was first registered with and the records are still available (the DVLA will not have them, you have to find it at one of the archive sites) then if you can get a certified copy of the record of registration the DVLA will reissue the number as long as its free to. 

This is one source, but there are others, the local authority of first registration should be able to say where the records are currently stored or if they were destroyed.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

The RK bit tells you the area of first registration

RA, RB, RC, RD, RE, RF, RG, RH, RJ, RK, RL, RM, RN, RO, RP, RR, RS, RT, RU, RV, RW, RX, RY Reading

I agree with John, try the local authority(ies) Archive’s they may have the old registration ledgers. I helped a guy with just a frame number and delivery date from the club, find his registration mark and then as a consequence get his bike registered in Sweden. All thanks to one of the welsh authorities having a great archive team. It’s worth a try.

I’d suggest getting the delivery date to the dealer from the club, find out what area the dealer was in, and then contact that council. 

Cheers Dan

Hi Ron

Forgive me if I'm suggesting the blindingly obvious but the club does have a good and established Records service, to assist members with this type of enquiry?

Simply contact them with a "NOC 4" enquiry by clicking this link. I do hope they can help.

Warm regards

Peter

NOC records do not cover registration numbers, the info is useful in getting to the dealer and supply date so you then know which local council registration records to look for. But if there are no local records then the NOC records on their own sadly do not help in any way to get the original registration number.

I have a non-Norton restoration project.  It's a basket-case Vincent, with documented original engine and frame numbers - I have a certificate from the VOC.  It was taken off the road in 1960 and broken up in 1962.  I got registration plates and the last tax disc, but no registration papers.  The original registering district no longer has the records.  When it's time to register the bike, I can expect to get a vaguely period correct number, but not the original.  You need proof that the plate and tax disc belong to your bike.  That means the registration papers.  No papers, you do not get to keep the plate.

A word of advice about original documents...  When you submit original documents to the DVLA, be extremely cautious about letting the DVLA have possession of them.  They may very well make promises to return the originals to you, but please, do not believe them.  What they do is scan your documents, and forward the digital copy to whoever processes them.  That may take place anywhere in the UK.  They automatically pulp your original.  If they return an 'original document', it is a computer printout of their digital scan.  They claim that if it is a computer printout of THEIR scan, it's an original.  This is total BS, and amounts to deception and fraud, also theft.  Do not let them do it.

I base this opinion on my own experience having imported my 1955 Model 88 from New Zealand.  I submitted documents as demanded, including the original New Zealand registration papers.  I attached a note to each original document, and notes to the top of the application, and elsewhere. The person receiving my application simply could not have been unaware that I was requesting the return of original documents.  It was on EVERY paper.  I got scannings.  On inquiry at the DVLA, I was told directly that a computer print-out is regarded by the DVLA as an original document IF SUPPLIED BY THE DVLA. There is no stamp on it to indicate that the DVLA are claiming that the print-out is supplied by them purporting to be an original, or a return of a document by them. They automatically pulp ALL documents supplied by the public.  You will not get your original back. That is DVLA policy.

Should I ever be in the position of registering a classic bike again, I would not do it by post, but go to a DVLA office, present the required documents, and refuse to leave without possession of the originals.  Just do not trust any promise they may make about returning originals.  Don't. Ever.

Do DVLA have local offices?

Please note that as of 2013, DVLA Local Offices are now closed. This information is provided solely for historical purposes as a complimentary service to our clients. DVLA is a registered trade mark of the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency.

So there is no way to hand over documents and being able to ask for them to be copied and returned there and then. 

You will not get them back and there is no way around this.

Civil Un-servants.

Good morning Ron - Am I correct in assuming that your re-purchased the bike with the customised enamelling on the frame parts ?  I lived in Liverpool  around that time and many of the cafe racer fraternity used customised paint finishes on their bikes.  That flamboyant purple colour was evident on lots of bikes and push bikes around Liverpool in the 60's and 70's.   The place to get the best paint job was C&G Finishes of Back Faulkner Street South in Liverpool. Their stove enamelling was exceptional and that was one of their special colours.  So, did the seller in Birmingham not give you any clues about paperwork ?  There used to be a data-base of original registration numbers on a Classic Car site ( and I think the BSA Owners Cub site) where you can see where the vehicle wearing the number was first registered.  You should be then able to contact the Authorities of that area and see if they have an Archivist who has the vehicle licensing records from that area.  Some do but unfortunately some destroyed them. I have spent many an hour in such places seeking information about old bikes I have renovated.  Once you can match a frame number to the original registration then you have the proof. The Records Archives Offices operate a service to copy the original ledger's entry and validate it for you to present with other proof of manufacture etc to DVLA. It's unfortunately long-winded but once you have reclaimed the original number it's worth it.  You should also check that the frame number is present, readable and matches a 1956 Dominator 99.  Sadly lots of frames don't match their build standard.   Good luck, Howard  

The DVLA is based in Swansea.  I have this idea that you can front up in Swansea and do business with them over the counter. That way you get to leave having submitted and received back your original documents. 

Does my putative counter at Swansea not exist, then?

Paul

Feel free to read the full 23 pages but my quick scan says your idea of a counter at Swansea is an illusion.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/250142/INF259_151013.pdf

As Gandalf said 'You shall not pass'

The local DVLA offices were indeed closed down during the Cameron regime. By the same token they also gave us 'The Big Society' (A synthases of Fascism and Communism) Nudge (Behaviour insights (Applied psychology)  or brain washing and of course the Greenest government ever. Not to mention raising State pension ages because there was no money....Really?

Good luck with visiting the DVLA under the current Welsh rule. My new driving licence eventually surfaced seven months after I applied for it.

Now you don't suppose any of this was planned , do you?.................

A few months ago, I applied for one of those new-fangled photo ID driver's licences, as I still have a paper one obtained in 1997.  It arrived about a fortnight after I applied. I can't complain about that. They made me promise to return the old paper one.  Not happening.  Oh dear, I forgot, sir....

If you do apply for a new licence, always take a photo of your old one showing what you are entitled to drive.  All classes.  Make sure the new one shows the same categories.  The DVLA is fond of confiscating categories, especially for riding motorcycles.  When caught out, they flatly deny that they have done so. In the unlikely event that they might award you categories you have not qualified for, it would be risky to take advantage....  Refer back to that photo evidence.  No photo, no proof of entitlement.  That gets expensive if you have to re-do all that training to get a full motorcycle licence.

They issued these to replace the little red book.  Forgot that you could get a motorcycle licence at 16 and erase the entitlement of many young men often not noticing the category had gone as they had also passed their car licence .

When stopped in the 80’s riding pillion with my daughter who was learning to ride. It was pointed out but the officer knew I had had a licence as I rode with him for the SWales police motorcycle trials team since I was 14 and celebrated when I could go off single venue events.

Application, evidence or affidavit’s failed to change their mind….

NEVER trust them with your data.

I have all my old licences...

When the local DVLA offices closed the records were either -

Given to the local council ie like Portsmouth city council who took the records from their local office. Some records are held in the county councils as well

The kithead trust,

Or sadly destroyed if no one wanted them. 

Cameron strikes again. Leaves a mess and clears off.

I used to work for a VRO before and after it became DVLA and at DVLC in Swansea I am happy to help people if I can. I can assure you that the centre at Swansea doesn’t have a public counter. There was a Swansea VRO but that was closed like the rest of them. But I’m pretty sure that you can send officially authenticated copies of documents to DVLA rather than the originals. 

From a historical point of view the vehicle registration ledgers were mostly used by the local taxation offices prior to it becoming part of the civil service/ Department of Transport and computerised at  DVLA. Some records found their way to the local council archives prior to the VROs being closed. Sadly some were destroyed before their future importance was recognised and well before the VROs were closed 

One thing to remember when looking for the ledgers is that some County/District  boundaries have changed. Also be prepared that some of the ledgers didn’t quote the frame number and if you do find your entry without a frame cross reference the DVLA wont accept it. 

I should add that the number of dodgy applications that came across our office I’m not surprised that DVLA are taking a strict approach - although most of those were dodgy documentation/vehicles for cherished transfers. 

Dan I

"I’m pretty sure that you can send officially authenticated copies of documents to DVLA rather than the originals."

I presume you mean a notarised copy of each document?  That is actually expensive.  I wonder if the DVLA understand that their obsession with seizing historical documents is destructive and angers those subject to it?

Paul

DVLA supply a full list of the secretaries phone numbers of all “owners clubs” of virtually every make and vehicle type. Any one can authenticate a photocopy of your original documents. When I reregistered my 99 I trawled through the full list to find the nearest, which was the MG owners club, rang the secretary and we met up and he put their stamp on the copy and signed it after checking the details were correct. He said it was a free service but I made a donation to their club.

There wasn’t a problem with DVLA and I was reissued with the original 1957 registration.

Best of luck

Dick

When I was negotiating with the DVLA about original documents, they insisted that nothing other than original documents would be acceptable if I wished the registration to proceed.  No copies of any kind, no matter what I did with them. Originals, only - for destruction. 

So Richard Hudson - when did you register your bike using a copy authenticated by an owners' club?

Paul

Paul

I’m pretty sure the reason you had to submit original documents is because your bike was an import, that is a different process requiring different documentation and DVLA must have the original documents. As far as I can recall we never returned original foreign registration documents or customs forms to the customer.

Dan 

Richard was keeping original plate on a previously UK registered bike, it was just dropped off the system by the DVLA when they cleared out the computer memory.

Paul's was an import, never been on the DVLA database.

Two separate processes as Dan says, both will have different rules.  

I just spent an age on the phone to the licencing authorities in New Zealand, trying to trace the original registration of my bike. 

The original registration number was 39390, but in those days, NZ Licencing kept no records at all - all that existed was the owner's registration paper.  Nothing kept centrally at all.  They have a trace of its registration in my ownership, but just that.

FWIW, in New Zealand you can request a registration number be reserved for you,but numbers can not be transferred.  I reserved 88NOR for my bike, and that plate is the only record of it.  I still have the plate...

The only remaining avenue of tracing the first owner is the Airforce ex-servicemen's association, and maybe any records that may still exist of the dealer.  Those are VERY long shots.