Fuels

Which country are you in ?

Look @ what, Andy?

My Norton's are full of Esso Synergy Supreme 99 RON, ethanol free. (E0) Inc 650ss.

But depends where you live.......

I've noticed that my featherbed Nortons are not very good at snow or ice. Living where we usually can expect snow between mid November and mid April, they hibernate for at least 5 months. Ethanol containing petrol degrades when stored, oil companies says 3 months usable time for E10. Having six running old British bikes plus three Jap ones, emptying them every autumn takes a lot of time. My solution is to use ethanol free petrol last two fillings. Started a 16H that had stood 5 years with alkylate petrol in it, no problem. A friends KTM enduro bike that had stood unused for two years, had to empty tank and carb and fill it with fresh petrol. To get rid of the old petrol I tried to burn it without success. Sometimes also had spring first start problems with lawn movers and E5.

Though using E10 or E5 might need slightly bigger main jets.

Francis,

Solutions are only temporary and will lead to further problems down the line.

The trick is to avoid having the problem given to you. No solution required.

Many of us globally can't avoid the problem. But seeing as we are about the last to adopt E10 then surely problems from those that have used it longer than the UK would be well know. Thing is, I don't see many reported problems from those in the EU, or the US regarding their Nortons. 

Depends where you look, Ashley!

Did you know for example that 54,000 HGV licences are waiting to be processed at the DVLA and have been for a very long time. You won't see that on the BBC or in the Guardian (BBC in print)

The same non reporting goes on with other censored issues I can't report here.

However, in general the legacy media have reported on higher fuel consumption and more visits to the pumps. Cold weather poor starting, an issue yet to be faced. Watch this space...

But perhaps in general the wised up classic owners are simply not using E10 and avoid E5 where possible. As I have made clear, Esso E0 is available through most of the UK and for others there are alternatives such as Aspen, Avgas and Anglo American racing fuel, not cheap but at least it spares the damage and draining tanks and carbs when not in use. Stateside E0 is possible: just go to your local marina and some states have banned ethanol, Maine for example last time I checked. (Ethanol melted motor boat moulded plastic fuel tanks)

I honestly don't think too many Norton owners will be using E10, it makes no sense economically for a multitude of reasons. Unless of course one believes E10 is saving 'The Planet.' Seriously, I don't believe anything from this cult. Follow the money...

Neil, 

It is my job, I talk to owners daily from a all across the world. If E10 was the demon it is made out to be I would hear of it. 

The UK is also a tiny proportion of Norton owners worldwide, most owners are abroad. Even the NOC surveys suggest despite the number of members few actually ride, and even fewer on a regular basis.

Realistically, gaining information from UK owners on the potential effects of E10 is pointless. Most reports will be on bikes stood idle over winter and not bikes in constant use. 

We are all aware of the problems with processing of anything by the DVLA. It has been well publicised on the BBC , both TV and Radio. Maybe we watch and listen to different channels.

Gasoline is a mixture of chemical compounds which have different volatilities. On prolonged standing, the'light ends' evaporate and starting from cold will become difficult.

The introduction of Ethanol into gasoine is probably a sop to enviromentalists and was certainly popular with US corn farmers.

Real evidence of harm is scarce, I have looked, but anecdotal and unsubstantiated

Changing fuel lines and maybe floats is no big deal. claims abound.

For what it’s worth my 2002 Rav 4 is showing a 1-2 mpg increase according to the onboard computer now I’m using E10 - just saying!  

Dan

A) E10 has not been around that long and you can't be certain that you have 10% ethanol just       yet. Most UK ethanol is made from wheat and the UK is a net importer of wheat and so unless you test it you might not know and besides, E10 means anything from 5.1% up to 10%.

B) By January the supply chain MIGHT have recovered a little and more wheat to make ethanol (Not bread) available. If so, we will see how that cold starting is going.

As said, my Norton's are fueled up with E0 for next Spring if anyone is still about.

Ride Safely...

As Charles says..petrol is a mixture of compounds with different volatilities. My veteran has a surface carburettor and relies on a fuel with a narrow volatility range. I empty the tank into a sealed container every time I use it, or the good stuff evaporates. Fuel "going off" is not new.  Norton "period" instructions warn that, if you use alcohol brews (of which there were numerous in the 1960's) you should clean the deposits from carburettors every year). Phil Irving ('Automobile Engine Tuning) lists nearly 30 brews, mostly with varying fractions of methanol and benzole but some with ethanol. "Shell Y" had 75% ethanol,  14% benzole, 5% acetone and 6% water!  Ethanol might be good for those with cast iron cylinder heads as it might make them run a bit cooler.  We need some experimental data, but we don't seem to get it.

Does Institution of Mechanical Engineers still publish the Autobile Engineering Journal? That would have had such information back in the 30's.

Neill, you rather sound like that great expert, Greta. And I have Weetabix for breakfast, let's hope not all of the wheat ends up in the pumps.

David, now most of the E0 fuel in my 16h has been in there a lot of years but it still starts well enough. Back in the old days a bike was bread and butter and didn't spend months out of use, so the fuel simply did not get the chance to go off and the damage to the fuel system when using ethanol products, such as Discol took much longer to show itself, plus there were plenty of E0 products to top up with to slow the process down even further.

Unlike today when there is a roaring trade in anti ethanol products to add to your cost. Best not to use ethanol in the first place. Still, at least ethanol is not mandatory yet. But perhaps it is experimental in three parts of the UK? Food for thought. (No pun intended)

I don;t actually believe our  recently built cars are  ethanol proof at all.  Only resistant.  Ok if in regular use,  My sister took her expensive  car in for its annual service  (not the normal £500  dealer rip off but to a local Honest guy.  £  120   Inc an MOT.   He said pointless changing oil and filter as still   like new.  But  she is a likely  victim of old fuel  corrosion.  No one drains the tank at a service do they.  But thats what it needs.

E10 has been about for years, it is far from new. Last I heard those in colder parts of Europe have no starting issues. 

I also know 4  seemingly sensible  people who are refusing to have the Covid vacines on the basis that  they haven't been ill yet.    Time will tell.

Roger,

As the 650SS should be in a higher state of tune than most of the older Nortons then one of the higher octane fuels would be appropriate. 

If you are not using the bike regularly then you may wish to use fuel without added ethanol to avoid corrosion issues. Some grades of super unleaded are ethanol free and may prove to be better in this respect.

In regular use I cannot detect any performance difference between super unleaded with or without ethanol.

But then I find that my seat of the pants performance meter leaves a little to be desired. A bike that starts ticks over and runs well is not always set up perfectly. Some small changes may improve it.

Only one way to be sure on how well the "petrol" works and that is to set up a test programme. In the day factory testers and dynamometer. These days we have access to AFR meters and rolling roads both of which allow us to compare set up and any small changes we may make. Or in the case of petrol have had imposed upon us .

Our bikes being 40+ years old no longer have a factory giving this sort of guidance and of course some of the bikes have been modified over the years.

From what I see our American chums have grasped this need to better understand whats possible now.

Keith

Please let's keep the jab out of it. And the ridiculous assertions about yellow card conspiracy...there is no truth whatsoever in the narrative of a cover up. Those conspiracy theorists are not simply bonkers..they are murderers by proxy.