Spares & Remanufacturing. Personal Funding....

Reading the posts from Anthony about the Manxman silencers and trials and tribulations he has had in getting them made is explanation in itself. The cost of manufacturing essentially what is a one off will always be very high. To expect the club (any club for that matter, say it was an unobtainable part for a Ducati) to fund manufacture for say 10 pairs and then to have 8 pairs sat on the shelf for years is not good use of club funds. Anthonys experience of the mudguard saga is enough to put anyone off commissioning a run of parts manufacture.

An article in the latest Old Bike Mart, albet about restoring japanese classic bikes, makes a good point.

If you want a 100% perfect restoration it is going to cost, the rarer the bike, more expensive this will be. Then will you want to actually use the bike once its finished !

If the demand is there for parts to be made I'm sure the club will look at the feasibility of getting stuff made. Then again, will the club want to step on the toes of the established suppliers of spares that most of us use? 

People might tell you spares for the Lightweights are almost impossible to find, but ask yourself the question how many of those people will actually buy 'Newly made spares' I bet very few! The club could very easily have a pile of stuff made that is sat on the shelf for years.

Heavy Twin barrels are available from at least one supplier, at a cost. Just how many owners are willing to pay for them is another question. 

Regards

Peter Shand

Chairman EYNoc

Evening Peter

RGM must have thought that they can market a Lightweight kickstart and get a reasonable return on said product (they are a business after all)

Question, If you had the opportunity to fit a centerstand or side stand that wasn't specifically made for your model bike but fitted perfectly and worked, would you use it? I'm asking this as in regard to the manxman silencer issue. I applaud Anthonys efforts in getting his silencers made but if it was my machine, i would have fitted the available silencers/exhausts for a 650 twin. Saved a ton of money in the process and would ignore the rivet counters at shows and the like. 

The subject of originality is quite an emotive one. The vast majority of 'original bikes' are nothing of the sort. Maybe they should be labelled as 'Looks quite well put together'   

Peter Shand    

There is another issue with  pattern spares. I'm not sure there is the needed expertise to make the spares to the required standard  or the facility to quality control the product.I am a member of other clubs and have had to return important parts that are often incorrect. Back in the day when there was a bike production line and a warranty ,suppliers were brought to heel  or their monthly account was not paid . That got their attention. And the issue got sorted. Not any more.

I have restored motorcycles most of my adult life and it is definitely getting harder to get the parts to do a quality restoration even to the extent of pointing out to Andover that the 06-090/091 levers that they supply look nothing like the original levers fitted to '68 Commando. I believe we are but curators  of our machinery for future generations and for this reason I strive to get it as close as possible to what it would have looked like when it left the factory, I agree with John that where it is not commercially viable to reproduce unobtainable items then where possible it should be the job of the club spare scheme especially in this situation, the club only has to purchase one set and keep in stock and when sold replace it, Anthony is already getting one set so 2 or more shouldn't be a problem as somebody in this world will pay the price. I am aware locally of a Manxman sitting in pieces but currently as certain items are so difficult why would I or anybody else even consider purchasing it to restore. 

hello And I agree with John above conversation The attitude of most owners are the same Attitudes of the nineteen sixties were you buy a bike and run it  and it does not matter how   original it is just run and ride it,  to add to all this the cafe racers made from any parts you can lay your hands-on,  is not an original motorcycle  or classic by any means  and the Commando there were some 56, 000 of them made and parts are made worldwide and pretty  standard  parts that will fit other motorcycle-like late Triumphs  and some BSAs   So this leaves the early Bracebridge Made machines out in the cold As most Commando parts do not fit Bracebridge street, Early Norton,  And This club was supposed to support the Norton Brand from all years  and its Preservation and Historic back gound no matter how Rare these Norton are And AS for the Club and Branchs Supporting its members  In difficult times  Over the last years  I have seen the opposite to this   With No support from anywhere or anyone,   I seem too be Isolated and Ostsizeds for this Club  It time for the NOC to take a count of where they want to take this club To suport historical Norton Motorcycles Or go down th path its now taking were the club will evetually fall apart  And Anhtony Cuzon in the past as had lot of unsupportive comments made witch dosenot help any one to do any thing  He is this clubs rock And I wish I had the Captical behind me to suport him and this club  As for the Manxman Silencers and it down pipes there are some 56 owners and more thats not come to light as yet  will be wanting parts  that wear out like silncers and exhast pipes Now if this Club could do one honor of doing some advisting For Anthony and his Manxman Exhaust parts  then he may get some sales and recope his investment in these time we all need to take a closer look at each other as none of us are perfect and we all have our human faillings so please try to support each other instead of falling out with each other ,  I have been a member of this club for near 15 years and nothing much as moved or being done apart from runs and show  in far away places Now after Covid -19 we need to do things more locally and Enjoy our own country And try to get to gether and try make our own parts that are hard to find  it is down to the EC member to help and co-ordernate all this and give finnacual support of hard to find parts  the parts team are doing there part in disubuting  parts on a volentary basis  and doing a good job so far but parts are getting thin on the Noc shop  and  the Noc Colthing need a real up date is looking old and from the past not much as been up dated there as well  I have all ready new designs for Club logs with the Bracebridge street frame work  look   The best Roadholder in World And The Light of Experiance yours  Anna J 

I agree with Peter even though I am no lover of lightweights, the huge cash reserves we are sitting on should be used to fund the more unobtainable and commercially uneconomic parts. 
The sale of “consumables” of questionable quality is not what the club scheme should be about imho

Gino

Also one of the rotary enthusiasts made a big personal investment to get chain guard rubbers remanufactured.

Seeing as the club can't go open house on the remanufacture of any part suggested by any member to suit their own needs, couldn't each need be put forward to the EC on an individual basis after the member has done the ground work and research?

I am half the world away what do you want me to do Peter sell one of my Nortons to fund a trip to the AGM in this covid19 age, I thought this was supposed to be an International Club yet you feel that Important discussions like this be left to a local get together that only a few can attend, the Club is about the use and preservation of Norton Motorcycles and [in my view] the retention of said for future generations.

I'm not a huge stickler for originality but I do think a one-make motorcycle club should make every effort to produce and supply the unobtanium to keep bikes on the road. Some items are more essential than others - Manxman silencers are not essential to keep a bike running, lightweight stands and kickstarts are.

The NOC is not the only culprit. The VMCC used to supply drive belts for veterans. Not any more. Now there's an essential bit of unobtainium if ever there was.

Time for the Committee to have a think about what the club is for and what the club funds are for.   

The NOC club as a whole are doing a good job. Great monthly magazine, website ,  events (current situation not withstanding) and a great camaraderie at rallies and the like. All for less than £20 a year. Plus a spares scheme as well.

What's not to like? Some people will moan about anything. If you feel that strongly about it then do something. Don't just be a moaning Minnie 

I would like to make something clear, and I hope Anthony Curzon will back me up on this. The NOC DID offer to fund the manufacture of Manxman Silencers. Initially the offer was made on a number of occasions to AJD but never taken up. It was discussed with Anthony but he said he would prefer to handle the issue himself and once 'production' was possible, he would get back in touch.

I think (and this is just my opinion so sorry if I am wrong) that Anthony would rather do his things in his own way, to his own timescales without any pressure from the NOC for updates etc.

Yes, we do need to make more spares (I have a Navigator Delux) so have a vested interest in Lightweight spares. 

I would suggest that at the moment our main problem is manpower. I believe the spares team are just about flat out supplying things they have in stock and replenishing stock without endeavoring to manufacture 'new' spares. Finding more volunteers is always a problem. 

Note, Just 'placing and order' for something that has been made before is not always that easy, sometimes the manufacturer has closed, sometimes they just do not want to make any more.

Regards

Tony

A  few years ago ,thinking about what I would do if my favorite Bike  blew up and wrecked my perfect +10 barrels  ,I contacted an old pal in bike engineering and persuaded him to instigate the manufacture of 600/650 barrels. There was an intention to use the same basic casting to make 500 cc barrels with extra machining,but I think that was a bit too problematical. I believe an order was processed . And I think there was some club involvement. Sadly the business folded but I think the project was taken over by Norville who are now marketing the  barrels .  A good effort,but very expensive.  But it does show that someone with very little Know how (me ! ) can get something started.

I am concerned about another looming event.  Les, at Russell Motors, won't be there forever (just like the rest of us...).   He worked at Plumstead...  The two successors to the business are not interested in old bikes, so what will become of his business and stock?  It's not an NOC issue really - it needs someone who is keen to run a small business.

I'm pleased to say that they are open again after the recent and ongoing matters.  If you do call, note he is not there on Mondays or Fridays.

Anna

A 'rivet counter' in terms that i'm refering to, is someone who turns up at shows and bike gatherings and proceeds to point out that the exhausts, or rims, or tyres, or paint, etc etc fitted to your bike are wrong, usually accompanied with the words 'that's not original!'

John

You are obviously a moaner, not a do-er. Why don't you organise the 'Letters and spares' and become a do-er.

There is a interesting article on the AN website regarding pirate spares and the impact of using something like fork stanchions that are of inferior make, More relevant to the current discussion is the fact that AN had to buy two tons of the correct steel tube to then have their stanchions made.   

Peter,

Also, don't forget the two tonnes of special dimension CDS to make the P11 stanchions as well as the bronze bar I needed for valve guides that was also hard to obtain in the UK, and it was not Colsibro. 

hello  now, what peter calls rivet counters Are in fact 100% Norton enthusiasts  something he does not understand   and says things  with no empathy  and as not much interest of early Nortons  and he seems to have a chip on his shoulder for some reason   where he's taking the branch no-one knowns  and the only interest is riding as far as he can to get the bruce green cup, which to me is senseless  just wearing out your Norton for no reason at all if you need a ride you need to plan your ride to see something interesting on the way and make your ride enjoyable Any way this is not just about making sets of rare Norton Manxman silencers and pipes  there are other older Nortons that need parts that are unobtainable today  besides making them your self if you have some tooling and the know-how, and The Club is about preserving Norton makes  and my last look at Noc spares there running low on parts Lightweight a especially So now ever one known what's needed so let end this argument  and get on whit doing things    like restoring Nortons  Yours  Anna J

In my opinion the idea with the most promise was the one mentioned by Peter Stowe, copied below 

Seeing as the club can't go open house on the remanufacture of any part suggested by any member to suit their own needs, couldn't each need be put forward to the EC on an individual basis after the member has done the ground work and research?

As for  AJDs comments. I have been to the last two international rallys and the year before them toured Switzerland. my question to you Anna:- Where have you been on your manxman? The last time i saw it, it was trailered to a carpark, You didn't even ride it! and at the club meeting when the bruce green cup was presented to the member with the highest mileage on a Norton you were wanting the club to give an award for the Norton that did the least mileage in the year Which was your manxman!

More like temporary custodians, I get calls every day from new temporary custodians. 

A spares system is a self expanding process, and needs to start somewhere, once owners have a rare or hard to find part they'll use the bike, wear out other parts, and thus create further demand.

The reason the club exists is because so many of the bikes still exist, if they become exhibits and garage trophys then spares demand will dwindle, no one will bother making them and it will be a perpetual decline in the marque, with the club being pointless and of no value.

The spares support for some bikes is most probably better now than anytime since the 80's It would be nice if every model had the same level of support, but every part needed could not all be produced at the same time, the human and financial input would be massive.

The Norton spares scheme is busy with just its existing holding, and most probably does not have spare capacity to introduce new parts. Maybe in the future the tech team could help reintroduce the rarer parts, and them put them under the spares scheme once the first batch has been produced. At the moment there is no set up or process to capture 'wants' until there is, then the club can't really plan, direct effort and assistance to aid members in getting the parts needed. 

I agree with Ashley.  Parts sourcing on a small scale is incredibly time consuming and expensive. The NOC parts people are all volunteers and do a good job. 

I did a rough count of parts held for the various categories of model by copying and pasting the parts list into Excel.  The number of parts lines (part numbers) held for the Commando models is virtually the same as for Lightweight models. Single and heavyweight models have a bigger number but, factor in commonality,  the numbers are not so different.  In would be interesting to look at the demographics of the models owned by club members to see how the parts holding compares.

I am not expecting "Cow's Udders" silencers for my 1938 ES2 to appear in the parts list in the near future.

If they do, Colin then there should be right and left, to cater for the twin ports....I wonder from time to time if anyone ever bought a twin-port to 'Trials' specification, with the high-level pipes.  It would certainly have been a spectacular thing.

I've seen no literature to indicate that the 'Comp' bikes didn't have the double-outlets although I'm sure I've heard suggestions that in fact the factory gave up on them before the end of the model year.

.. the only spares that the Club should be sponsoring are those that actually keep our Nortons running. I don't care whether a bike has the "correct" silencer, mudguard etc - I do care if it's only able to be transported on a trailer because its cylinder barrel has fractured and another is unobtainable.

Just my 2 pennorth.

I think the first stage is to ask ALL members what they would like to see in re-manufactured spares.  It doesn't really matter how expensive or difficult they might be as those would have to be eliminated by the process of "Natural Selection".  It is critical that the demand is known before you can think about supply.  You need to get a feel of the potential demand before anything else.  Hence a "Wishlist".

There are a number of suggested spares in these postings - seemingly dominated by Manxman Silencers perhaps - but that's OK.  Until you get a feel of what parts are really important and currently either unobtainable or in very short supply, you are shooting in the dark.

I think that it's more than reasonable for any motorcycle club to look at the possibility of financing new spares.  One word - "Mudguards"!  Easy to get Wideline types eh?  NOT!   The problem here is as with many other sheet metal parts - making them by hand - and you really need a Wheeler to get the curves right.  Fred Williams is pretty good for front guards for many early Norton models, but he's only one man - and he doesn't want to make the rear Wideline types which are a jigsaw of a thousand parts!  (Yes - I AM exaggerating!)  Don't even mention tin chaincases!  Unobtanium as "new"!

I am lucky enough to own a Bracebridge Street Dommie 99 AND a 1961 Navigator De Luxe!  A good example of spares that NOC used to have, but haven't got now, is the Navigator Side Stand.  Not really a surprise as they were optional extras in the day.

As has been a theme in these posting, I think that it's far more important to have spares that keep a bike going rather than esoteric spot-on correct parts for the year and model so any new parts should reflect that.  Silencers are a good example.  In my first rebuild of my 99 I fitted a "Goldie" silencer to my Siamese pipes because that's what you did to customise - and the pattern ones were dirt cheap!  John Hudson told me that the 99 worked better with Siamese pipes and an "SS Silencer".  I never found out what they were.

I think I am talking myself into a job here and I am happy for people to send spares suggestions to me. I can collate them and even provide original or superceded part numbers from my fairly comprehensive Spares Lists of Lightweight and Heavyweight bikes - but only pre-Commando bikes.   My lists are only post-war. (Although my wife would LOVE a flat tanker!)  Another possible aspect is to find out which members or their friends/family/lovers/acquaintances have an engineering setup that they would be willing and able to use for small batches.  The issues of legality, safety and liability would come afterwards.  This could be considered as Members helping other Members and not a commercial business.  Think of it as in WW2 when parts for planes such as the Spitfire (I am in the home town of that plane and my Mum was involved in building them!) where many small workshops and garages were roped into making parts.

Over to you Chaps and Chapesses.

Stay safe!

Lionel,

Firstly, well done for putting your ideas forward. I agree canvassing members for their wish list items is a good place to start. I also agree that the list will get trimmed through a 'natural selection' process e.g. not enough demand, too expensive to manufacture based on a realistic sale price, etc., etc.

I have a Jubilee and my wish list items are a side stand and a solid seat base BUT I would not put these items above those necessary to keep other Norton's on the road.

Good luck with the wish list.

Dennis

As far as I am aware Leightons cannot supply  bases [for complete seats] for slimline featherbeds, I tried them a number of times to get a complete seat for my '66 Atlas to no avail.

Are available from Norvil - £136.50+VAT according to their website. Maybe not the best,  but they do work as I hae one.

Regards, George. 

George:

Hae one???

A Geordie are ya

Mike

hello now as for silencers  peter shand as said any after market silencers will do well let us see your bike with a set of ray guns on  it then would look a bit silly would it not  the manxman silencer makes that bike what it is and there is nothing the same any thing else it would look silly   and when you get to own a very rare motorcycle that some of its part are very hard to get hold you do not  go out and ride the hell out of it, just like some bike of the shelf and run of the mill like a Commando  as these where made for a number of styles And over 56,000 of them made Now as for Norton manxman there was less then 600 ever made  and dispersed allover the globe now the owners in the USA now appreciate   these bike to day as even in the USA  there are very rare  and so is the 650ss as well and the model 88 slimlines some people seam to live in their own bubble and do not relises what going on in the classic motorcycle world   owners are now out looking for that rare motorcycle so they have something that bit different from anyone else  that why Norton Built The Norton Manxman in the first place to stand out in a crowd   and in a Class of its own  and it dose this very well its a bike you own carefor and cherish just like my first push bike from new a Eswick tour de angals race bike I loved that bike no one around had one of these back then in 1965 it had a 531 frame everything on it was about racing    any way this club is about running and looking after all Nortons rare or not  so parts need to be made of hard to find Nortons  and there are owners out there that need these parts  and I may have got a after market company to make and sell Manxman silencer and down pipe for them and world wide distributors   Now I need some patterns and help  to get this stared and once the ice as broken then other hard to find parts could follow,  and being negative about things is not going to get any of us far  try helping each other will make for a better club   yours  anna j

Lionel

Say the club spares scheme got some fork stanchions made for a Norton, they could very well be in direct competition with the current established suppliers. This could very well impact the numbers sold by the current suppliers, so weakening their sales. To compensate they could put up the prices of the rest of the spares they sell to make up the shortfall. Or they could reduce the quality of the stanchion to then reduce the cost and so promote sales. There is a load of things to take into account with all of this. Losing the goodwill of established suppliers is one of them. 

John Halls initial question was to ask;-

'why is/has Anthony Curzon having to fund the Manxman silencer project, by himself? surely it should have been a project funded by the Club and Anthony should have been recompensed for time and outlay!' 

This is loaded question, very easy to then say 'I have just bought a rare model Norton, its a basket case, and now its the clubs responsibility to fund its restoration' A ridiculous statement at the very least.

One of the previous contributors to this thread quoted that he knew where there was a manxman in bits but was put off buying said pile of bits because of the lack of certain parts. My view is that the bits were probably overpriced in the first place. A manxman in bits is just another 650 twin in bits with silly handlebars. Same as the Commando Hi-rider, a Commando with silly handlebars.

You buy a sixty year old bike, you buy all the problems with it, then either sort out the problems yourself or pay someone to do that for you. The older/rarer the machine the more expensive this will be.

We have a member in our branch who is restoring a vee twin machine of extreme raritiy, the costs racked up so far are in the tens of thousands.