Matching Numbers

All up to and including 1973 model year have matching numbers engine to red plate on frame, 74 also have matching numbers engine to red plate on frame but have an additional manufacturer stamp on the frame non matching but sometimes used on the V5. 1975 MK3's start off with matching engine 325000, red plate F125000 and stamped on frame numbers F125000, but the longer it went on the discrepancies entered and they do not always match and the receiver built machines 76/77 are the worst.

http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm 

Has it ever been documented why Norton Matchless, after seventy years of building motorcycles suddenly decided to cease stamping a proper number on the frame, as every other manufacturer continued to do ?

It's not as if theft of motorcycles was unknown at that time and the red-plate-only number is a fraudster's delight.

No VIN plate fitted and the '82 first reg date points to a machine built from parts post final demise of Norton Villiers Triumph whose last MK 3 Commandos were produced in '77. Many Mk 3's were put together from parts in the years after the end of factory built machines - still continuing today I believe from one or two well established Commando parts suppliers. As your machine has a V5 you're OK with DVLA so not having a red VIN might only be a problem if you want to sell the bike - most potential buyers will expect a red VIN plate.

The Commando numbering system suffered several hiccups and inconsistencies during its decade of manufacturing life as Norton's uncertain future lurched from one financial crisis to another. My own '73 MK1a 850 - produced around the time Norton Villiers was in process of  changing to NVT -  has a VIN plate that only shows the manufacture date stamp ( 9 / 73) while the space for the frame number was left blank when it left the factory. Original registration document showed frame number same as engine number however. See pic.

I have one of the batch of machines that was assembled from parts at Marston Road in Wolverhampton.  It was produced in February 1978 although the frame has the usual 77 year stamp.  It has a complete set of matching numbers, including the gearbox.  It did come from the factory as new, however, with a Mk.II front mudguard complete with the fixing holes for the front stay that was not fitted on the Mk.III.  Perhaps they ran out of Mk.III mudguards.  Obviously, a machine is worth considerably more if the numbers do match but to me, the most important issue is that the bike is fantastic to ride!

Even if non matching numbers if the factory records match the numbers on the bike then the value should be unaffected.

Andover Norton are the best source for blank plates, they will also stamp them free if you have a V5 and get to them before the order is dispatched.

Most of us who have rebuilt Commandos over the years have replaced the headstock plates...They fade and rub on the cables and generally end up looking tatty.

Even frames sold as spare parts had drillings for the hammer drive rivets...I'm sure that you'll find them there somewhere...although John Player Replicas (and I believe Norvil PRs) had the plates under the seat as the headstock was covered by the fairing clamp...This wouldn't have applied to Mk3 850s though.

If you do buy a plate, there are three or four different sorts so do some research first...They don't sit centrally by the way, if you're lookng for the holes.

I have an import dated 1973, imported back to the UK in '83, and all three numbers match- engine, gearbox and frame.1973 750 Roadster. Unsure of whether or not it could be a Combat motor as I have no history of the bike.

There were no Combats made in the 73 model year, Combats were only 72 model year.

I've just bought a 73 850 Commando and joined the owners club. I recently bought a Bonneville, been wanting one of each for years after many Japanese bikes. Loving the Commando, a leaking breather pipe to change and a leaking Kickstart seal but nothing major. Just bought a collet spanner for the exhaust nuts that keep loosening.

 I'm interested in the numbers, mine is matching engine and frame but doesn't have a plate on the frame. The frame does have a number stamped in the headstock but its missing a few numbers.

Sorry that should have read, matching engine and gearbox 

The number stamped on the frame pre MK3 is not an official frame number but a number stamped by either of the 2 frame makers that supplied the frame to Norton, presumably some sort of tracking for invoicing or stock rotation. It started on the Italian frames and later got added to the English supplied frames. That number would not have been stamped on the red headstock plate until the 1975 model year 75's. My 74 has that number but its not recorded on the despatch record and bears no relation to the numbers stamped on the red headstock plate, this was stamped with the engine number and month/year of build. Now as Norton were up until this point not stamping the frame this new stamping got picked up by some dealers and recorded on the first registration docs as the frame number, mine is that way, the red headstock plate stamping has been ignored for frame number.

All you need to do is to get a despatch record search to determine the month/year of build, buy a plate and stamp it with the engine number and month/year and attach to the headstock.

More info on the frame stampings.

http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm

Or just ask AN who have the MK3 factory records. Both my MK3 are matching numbers, one is engine and red plate same number as per records, the other the frame number in the headstock and engine number though different still the same as the records. 

I recently purchased a Mk2 Commando and the engine number is consistent with this model  but the Frame starts with F101 a number that appears to be from @1962 (it’s clearly a commando I.e. isolastic frame)

The frame doesn’t have a steering lock boss and the VIN plate was provided unattached. This only has the top box stamped I.e. with 10 73. I’ve ordered a replacement plate - should I put the frame or engine number in the lower box?

The log book shows both numbers correctly.

Were racing frames sold without steering lock bosses? I understand my bike may have been raced and perhaps this could explain the odd frame number - were replacement frames numbered differently ?

If I provide more info, can someone in the club advise how my engine and frame left the factory - perhaps happily united at the time!

One last observation - the VIN plate I have does not have the word ‘federal’ included in its text, but it appears impossible to buy a replica.

I’m assuming those with ‘federal’ were US exports ?

The Federal red plates went on UK bikes, all versions of the red plate are available from Andover Norton. German bikes got their own plate.

The F101XXX number is not a Frame number recorded by the factory for Mk1 or MK2's, it seems to started with frames coming from Italy and was for internal use only. So unless its on the V5 like it is with my MK2A then ignore it. The Red plate gets stamped with the Engine number as mine is, mine is  stamped 11/73 for build date so very close to yours.

MK3's are different and the F125XXX number is a frame number and recorded in the despatch records. 

More info on the F100XXX frame stamps

http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm

Plenty of exceptions and anomalies with the red VIN plate generally. This is my Mk1a 850 I've owned since '77 showing factory date stamp 9/73 (Sept '73) and nothing stamped in the other box space. 

A Mk3 frame with a pre Mk3 number. I have heard that Mk3 frames may have been used on late Mk2A bikes, anyone else seen this?

There is not a lot of difference between a Mk2 and a MK3 frame, its mainly the change on the rear hoop gussets for the locking folding seat and the front headstock for the revised steering lock. As there were other running changes which were early introduction of MK3 parts such as the short swingarm spindle with welch plugs and felt oil retainers then it is possible. So if you show a pic of these gussets then it will show if it is a MK3 frame, the number in the pic says MK2 as the first MK3 was F125000. 

My commando 850 has matching engine and vin plate numbers but on the v5 its not as its got the stamped frame number, so I suppose it is matching numbers but not on the V5

Mine is the same Marcus, its in the factory records as matching plus the red plate, engine number and gearbox number match so it is matching numbers but the V5C has the F number as the frame number. Its Norton's fault for not stamping directly onto the frame, as soon as a number did appear on the frame then dealers started to use it on registration as it is a permanent number unlike the red plate.

Mine is the same.

The number on the red plate is the factory machine number. The F number is a manufacturing identification number put on by Farina in Italy who made the Mk3 frames and should have been used as the frame number from that point as it was stamped directly onto the frame. A lot of dealers continued to register bikes with the red plate machine number as the frame number just as they had always done previously so if the red plate machine number is the same as the engine and gearbox numbers, it is a matching numbers machine even if it has been registered with the F number on the V5. As stated above, Mk3 frame numbers should run from F125000 but clearly there were exceptions.

Part numbers for the frame are stamped on the front face of the LH fuel tank bracket next to headstock.

The early 850 frame part number is 064140
Later pre-Mk3 frame is 065404
Mk3 frame is 065632.

I have a late 2A frame, Italian made, stamped. I traced it back to being exported to Canada, and traced it also to the House its owner lived at in Ontario, but I cannot trace it coming back to the UK. I do not think even Sherlock could solve this one. I have a mk 3 Crankcase for it, but a Mk 2a crank. Just needs .028 shims both sides to get it to fit.

Is your late 2A frame the same as a MK3 like mine pictured with the different shock mounts and steering lock plate? What primary cases are you intending to use on your Mk3 crankcases? I ask as I have a similar project on the back boiler.

Regards, Al.

VERLICCHI not farina

1964 - 1971
In 1964 the Company acquired a new 3000 sq. M. factory in Croce di Casalecchio (BO) and expanded its staff to 100.
These new premises were immediately organised for maximum efficiency, with specialised departments for each step of the frame production process.
This allowed Verlicchi to expand its business horizons, and to deliver the first supplies to important new European manufacturers such as Norton, Zündapp, Triumph, Laverda, Guzzi, Fantic and Minarelli.

From Joe Siffert @ ANIL

Verlicchi made the majority of Commando frames to the best of my knowledge. Early ones were fumbled together in England, but Verlicchi were the motorcycle frame professionals making frames on an industrial rather than one-by-one scale, and to date make frames for lesser (than Norton, that is!) manufacturers like BMW, Ducati etc.
I have read the tales about Verlicchi frames being inferior to England-made Commando frames, but have my private doubts about that. Sounds more like patriotic propaganda than fact. Generally speaking British industry at the time was more pre-war than post-war in its engineering capabilities, and the Italian (and German) content of Commandos grew in production times as buyers at Norton became aware things can be produced to tolerances in other countries that were then impossible to achieve in England.
For those who had their illusions crumble rest asured today's replacement frames made by Andover Norton are in fact Made in England again, if only because the numbers needed in the spares game are not numbers that Verlicchi and similar manufacturers can be bothered with.

I have studied imperial and metric dimension tubing frames used  on commandos for decades.

Is this topic still in doubt?

So do you know if some Mk2A Commandos left the factory with Mk3 frames as claimed by some people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfFQkk-A1gI&t=14s which could account for Mk3 frames with pre Mk3 numbers?

Regards, Al.

The last MK2a I saw with a MK3 frame was a reframe job, interestingly it had no part number stamped on the left hand fuel tank bracket so may have been made after the factory shut. Trouble is even if MK3 frame on a MK2a did happen as the despatch records do not reference the frame number you can never be certain. Only way to confirm is from somebody who worked at the factory. As the MK3 frame can be used on any 850 and there may have been a surplus of MK3 frames even when the factory finally shut in 77, if so then for the next few years the Norton spares outfit would be sending out MK3 frames to replace accident damaged 850's needing new frames.

Alan, the simple explanation for your Apr 75 113886 is a mistake in the order of the stamps in the block stamp fixture. See Apr-75#850#F130759# in Dave's listing of frame numbers, should 113886 just be 130886 stamped wrongly, 130886 is only 127 after 130759,  and the first 1 is so off line it must be some attempt to rectify ie a 0 rubbed out and replaced with a 1.

So goes to stamp 130886, stamps 013886 and rubs out the leading 0 and over stamps with a 1. Be interesting to see what the despatch records show for that one.