The horrors within

Hell Crawford

Here are some more pictures

The chain case with drandruff

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tec

Previously Katherine Scott wrote:

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Hello All,

The first rescue team has ventured into the navigator engine.

Grasshopper, you are following in the foot steps of black belt in bodgery! I feel your pain, some of the mechanical crimes commited against my commando were on par with these!

Best regards

Esme

Indeed Esme--there's a lot of it about!

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

But the good news is - it's all there, the alternator is complete and looks like it might live another day. I wonder what the purpose was welding the nuts unto the clutch adjusters? It doesn't make immediate sense as clearance between clutch and cover is pretty minimal.

It's probably had some interesting history, what with it's BSA forks, strangemodification to the footrest brackets and now these bits. Maybe used as a field bike?

Hello Dan,

Certainly a farm bike from what I hear. I plan to mount a Lucas RM24 three phase stator --luckily the rotor diameter is compatible. I suspect the existing one is intact. Some one has fitted some funny little non-standard rectifier at some point.

The clutch bit is interesting--there is no sign that the adjusters have ever had contact with the case--unless of course it was done and then the bike never started afterward hence no marks--we shall see.

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John

I guess the nuts welded on to the clutch nuts is because someone thought it was easier to use a normal spanner that the forked thing for normal clutch nuts. Why they did this I cannot even guess.

The dandruff is common on bikes stored outside for years. I have a polishing kit fitted to an old Black & Decker on the bench and it polishes out quite easily and a lot less effort than Solvol Autosol on my finger.

I will warn you ahead of time. You need a proper puller to take the half time pinion off the crankshaft on one side and another to take the sprocket off the crank on the drive side. See if anyone in the Club is in your area and try to borrow one. I am in Aberdeen so suspect not too close to you.

Regards

Crawford

Hello Crawford,

I ordered the puller for the cam wheels (a cop out really as I could make one really--sloth). Tell me more about the puller for the bottom timing gear. Triumphs have a think like a chuck which works quite well but is type specific.

I have numerous pullers for various jobs. Triumphs use the two threaded holes method but most use a two or three legged puller.

Any advice very welcome.

The idler wheel could be fixed I suspect but a new one was £10 from the spares scheme. They had new nuts at very reasonable prices (good job!).

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John

I guess the nuts welded on to the clutch nuts is because someone thought it was easier to use a normal spanner that the forked thing for normal clutch nuts. Why they did this I cannot even guess.

The dandruff is common on bikes stored outside for years. I have a polishing kit fitted to an old Black & Decker on the bench and it polishes out quite easily and a lot less effort than Solvol Autosol on my finger.

I will warn you ahead of time. You need a proper puller to take the half time pinion off the crankshaft on one side and another to take the sprocket off the crank on the drive side. See if anyone in the Club is in your area and try to borrow one. I am in Aberdeen so suspect not too close to you.

Regards

Crawford

Hello Crawford,

I ordered the puller for the cam wheels (a cop out really as I could make one really--sloth). Tell me more about the puller for the bottom timing gear. Triumphs have a think like a chuck which works quite well but is type specific.

I have numerous pullers for various jobs. Triumphs use the two threaded holes method but most use a two or three legged puller.

Any advice very welcome.

The idler wheel could be fixed I suspect but a new one was £10 from the spares scheme. They had new nuts at very reasonable prices (good job!).

John,

I have twice tried to send you details of pullers but the Club site will not allow me to cut and paste in and the answer is quite long. Pity as I think others would have been interested.

Could you send me your email address to rswabz@sky.com and I will send you it directly.

Hello Crawford,

And anyone else reading. I took the frame etc to bits including taking the front end off. I cannot seem to see how to get the cups out of the steering head

I have two front frame members -both 250 ones and they both look alike in this. There appears to be nothing to knock against to get the cups out, Do see the pictures.

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Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John

I guess the nuts welded on to the clutch nuts is because someone thought it was easier to use a normal spanner that the forked thing for normal clutch nuts. Why they did this I cannot even guess.

The dandruff is common on bikes stored outside for years. I have a polishing kit fitted to an old Black & Decker on the bench and it polishes out quite easily and a lot less effort than Solvol Autosol on my finger.

I will warn you ahead of time. You need a proper puller to take the half time pinion off the crankshaft on one side and another to take the sprocket off the crank on the drive side. See if anyone in the Club is in your area and try to borrow one. I am in Aberdeen so suspect not too close to you.

Regards

Crawford

Hello Crawford,

I ordered the puller for the cam wheels (a cop out really as I could make one really--sloth). Tell me more about the puller for the bottom timing gear. Triumphs have a think like a chuck which works quite well but is type specific.

I have numerous pullers for various jobs. Triumphs use the two threaded holes method but most use a two or three legged puller.

Any advice very welcome.

The idler wheel could be fixed I suspect but a new one was £10 from the spares scheme. They had new nuts at very reasonable prices (good job!).

John,

I have twice tried to send you details of pullers but the Club site will not allow me to cut and paste in and the answer is quite long. Pity as I think others would have been interested.

Could you send me your email address to rswabz@sky.com and I will send you it directly.

Hello Crawford,

And anyone else reading. I took the frame etc to bits including taking the front end off. I cannot seem to see how to get the cups out of the steering head

I have two front frame members -both 250 ones and they both look alike in this. There appears to be nothing to knock against to get the cups out, Do see the pictures.

Are there cups even in there

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Both the one on the bike and the spare one show no signs of removable bearing cups.

This the spare one

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Hello Patrick,

What an utter animal (a previous owner of my bike). You can see where the balls have been forces into the soft steel of the bearing housing. At first glance I thought there cups in there--they do look rather small (the housings) and oddly curved in section like the cups.

Would you agree there are none there (in the photos)

I think some has just loaded the balls into the housings (they are far more flat bottomed on all my other bikes) whacked the cups an grease in and left it at that. What is the diameter of the navigator stem post?

I am away from the bike bit the BSA one is 1 inch I think. When fitting dissimilar forks I have found that the fact that the stem post (3/4 inch) from BSA oil in frame 250s, 441, 500s is useful as it can be purchase as a stem threaded on each end (alloy yokes) is not too difficult to weld in place with a suitable boss.

I am hoping the navigator cones are compatible with the BSA yoke. I f so it will be a doddle

The top yoke has been savaged but luckily I was not going to use the standard handlebar mounts (good job, half of each has been sawn off).

Hello All,

Thanks for all you suggestions

A friend of mine has taken the had stock off to work to get the cups out.

I took the outer gear cover off this evening and spotted this item seemingly cut out of very thin all with tinsnips

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The bodger had struck again. Someone seems to have assembled the engine long ago but never started it up.

Just as well as many things were rather loose. There was no key driving the alternator. I am struck by little features such as the big spacer putting all the load from the alternator nut onto the ally outer not the steel inner.

There seems a lot more room--at at least clearance than other makes--I could never get big nyloc nuts in the Triumph's case.

I see what you mean about the sprocket Crawford. Splines and a key--real man's woodroffe key as well!

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Previously Dan Field wrote:

At least you didn't find a primary chain tensioner made out of wood!Hello Dan,

Not yet. I took the gearbox out today and removed the oil pump and cam wheels, etc. The gearbox all looked healthy--a robust item compared to BSA unit singles. The layshaft bush seems to have been spinning in the case mind.

The cam wheels cam off easily. I could not use the engine sprocket puller but luckily I had one that would suit. I to knock the woodroffe keys about to get them out of the keyways.

Top end off tomorrow.

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

John,

here's a scan of the gearbox. The bits you are referring to are presumably item 13. This is part of the pawl spring assembly.

Have you got the rest of the bits- items 12, 13, 14. 12 is the pawl spring and items 13 & 14 locate this in position. 13 is made of light alloy. You have the pre 106838 type gear box.

Treat the Wipac rotor with care as they are very difficult to obtain another. The big washer makes sense as the rotor centre can separate from the alloy bit if it is left off.

I doubt very much if you have any bearing cups in the headstock. They usually fall out with little effort.

Patrick

Thanks Patrick. I had several of those rotors once--if they are the same as BSA Bantam ones--still hindsight eh!

I think I have the whole gearbox--it could get all the gears from what I could see. Apart from one bush loose in the housing it all (tin snip cut ally part non withstanding) it all looks in good order.

Hello Patrick

luckily I have a lathe in the shed.

What I am interested in is the puller to remove the engine pinon-(on the crank--dives the idler that dives the cams. -I take it there is a special tool. Crawford Logan was going to send me something by e-mail but I have not heard from him.

To my surprise I just took the shocks to bits and found the dampers work perfectly and do not leak oil. I have ordered my stainless cones from Armours and found a gear lever that will fit. I have a cut about gear pedal that I will be to use to make up a kickstart with (the splined bit that is).

I am aiming to take the head off today.

I once fitted a WIPAC alternator to s C15 I helped some one build--new it was (in 1987)--that would have been 3/4 bore. I wonder why Norton used an inch bore one--I always thought they tried to use parts common to the AMC range.

I plan to fit a Lucas stator

Cheers

JPA

Previously Martyn Watson wrote:

Ah, after reading the thread properly and seeing the scan someone has very kindly supplied, it does look like there should be replaceable cups in there. The curved surface does look like a bearing surface however and i can't see why a bearing would fit into a housing with a curved receiving surface.

Can you upload a photo of the headstock from the side showing the ends?

Hello Martyn,

Uniquely in my experience that is what they have done--the housings look like bigger versions of the cups--the correct one cannot be used with my cones--which are, typically--in perfect order

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

The original 1959 Maintenance Manual has no mention of a special puller for the crank sprocket and I don't remember anything special beingrequired on thevarious engines I have stripped down in the past. I think clearance is a bit marginal to get most heavy duty pullers behind the sprocket.A spot of heat from an acetylene (don't roast it to red hot) usually works.The old acetylene welder was the best thing ever invented when you work a lot with old vehicles such as MGs.-streets in front of MIGs and TIGs -(except for actually welding on new work of course).

I don't know why Norton used the 1" Wipac rotor. It's an unusual size. The old Wipac rotor though survives well and it seems to keep it's magnetism. I think you could drill out the centre hole in a BSA rotor but I have never actually tried it.

Patrick.

Hello Patrick,

Thanks for that. I have all manner of pullers I'll have a go. The WIPAC rotor I have seems in very good nic-very magnetic and robust on construction. I think it would be possible to bore out a Bantam one or for that matter a lucas one.

I did it once after one came undone on the Triumph and ruined the bore--I have a belt drive on the Rickman and, bearing in mind Triumph rotors cling on half a rotor's width of shaft with a shouldered nut--I wanted to make something that fitted better.

You have to put the rotor up in a chuck and take it out with a boring tool. You can go as far as the magnets (everything concerned gets magnetised to high heaven) then you have to make a new centre and get the key way cut. I got this done in an engineering works I worked at in the 1980s and while doing it two charge hand hands got into a fight about using the broach and both got sacked. I saw one the other day--I don't think he recognised me.

Previously Andrew Wibmer wrote:

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Hello Patrick

luckily I have a lathe in the shed.

What I am interested in is the puller to remove the engine pinon-(on the crank--dives the idler that dives the cams. -I take it there is a special tool. Crawford Logan was going to send me something by e-mail but I have not heard from him.

To my surprise I just took the shocks to bits and found the dampers work perfectly and do not leak oil. I have ordered my stainless cones from Armours and found a gear lever that will fit. I have a cut about gear pedal that I will be to use to make up a kickstart with (the splined bit that is).

I am aiming to take the head off today.

I once fitted a WIPAC alternator to s C15 I helped some one build--new it was (in 1987)--that would have been 3/4 bore. I wonder why Norton used an inch bore one--I always thought they tried to use parts common to the AMC range.

I plan to fit a Lucas stator

Cheers

JPA

Hello John,

I too am looking for a kickstart, but have something to get me by. This might be of interest to you, at least it throws a wider net:

http://fboc.niceboards.org/t3181-falcon-parts-substitute

Andrew

Thanks Andrew

Hello Andrew,

I fortuitously found an AJS/Matchless kickstart on sale for £15 at the Kempton Partk autojumble with splines in useable order. I was not expecting that I must say

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hello Patrick,

Thanks for that. As it happens my cones arrived today and a glance told me that the stempost and nut I bought for £10 at the Kempton Park jumble were too big (a gamble gone wrong there then). I did get a kickstart though.

I'll fit a BSA oil in frame stem post. I ventured into the crankcase this evening. Do see my new thread

JPA

Previously martin_jones1 wrote:

Previously martin_jones1 wrote:

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Hello Patrick

luckily I have a lathe in the shed.

What I am interested in is the puller to remove the engine pinon-(on the crank--dives the idler that dives the cams. -I take it there is a special tool. Crawford Logan was going to send me something by e-mail but I have not heard from him.

To my surprise I just took the shocks to bits and found the dampers work perfectly and do not leak oil. I have ordered my stainless cones from Armours and found a gear lever that will fit. I have a cut about gear pedal that I will be to use to make up a kickstart with (the splined bit that is).

I am aiming to take the head off today.

I once fitted a WIPAC alternator to s C15 I helped some one build--new it was (in 1987)--that would have been 3/4 bore. I wonder why Norton used an inch bore one--I always thought they tried to use parts common to the AMC range.

I plan to fit a Lucas stator

Cheers

JPA

Hello John.

Yes a Lucas stator will go over the Wipac rotor.

But the air gap between stator and rotor is increased.

The result is that this combination is down on generated watts by about 15%. compared to Wipac to Wipac. But it does work so so.

I tried it on my Electra.

regards

Martin jones

Hello Martin,

Thanks for that--I see-- I did not know that but to my knowledge the old Wipac stator 9which looks in good order) only puts out some 50 watts so my use of a lucas 3 phase 180 watt one would still give me far more power.

Ironically I am typing this while a class does a test and--my challenge this evening will be to get the Triumph home. I have a high out put LucasRM 24 and a Wassell regulator rectifier, a Boyer kit and--a clapped battery. On the way here itwould not start with the lights one and--by the time I got to Colchester 9 miles or so--it was like the exploding clown car running on one banging like a naval battle. I managed to ride in but only just.

I think it has done a plug and am hoping that a rest will let the battery recover enough to start and then it can generate some power--a new battery is called for I think.

Cheers

JPA