Navigator Electronic ignition & 12v conversion

Nick-there is a comment elsewhere on this site re the Boyer pickup. The Boyer Power box, is over priced and high in failure rate so I stopped selling them some years ago. There are several other regulator/rectifiers on the market and a lot cheaper....Lucas stators are alleged to be fitted to the Lightweight, but there is no Lucas type rotor for 1" crank so you are stuck with the Wipac which seems to work very well considering its years, and I would also keep the stator.

I have an H4 headlamp in my Electra but the 61/2 headlamp is of Japanese origin!

As for fitting a capacitor yes but not much point with the Boyer Power box as it is already inside.

By the way it seems you have read my Lightweight advice but not my product list.

When I got my original Boyer system it came from Mick Hemmings. At that time there wasn't any "official" electronic system for a Lightweight. It was MH who told me that I could use the Boyer electronic box/wiring for a Commando matched to a BSA Bantam base plate as the Commando base plate didn't fit the Lightweight. (This was a long time ago -probably 25 years ago- and it still works).

So possibly the 'problem'with the original Boyer was that the base plate and the rotor were really designed for the Bantam.? ?

Around the same time we also used a Commando Boyer on a race BSA Starfire, i.e a single cylinder with a two plug head. It used up two or three batteries for a day's racing but otherwise worked well. Again this is ancient history but it seems to say that the one electronic box was used for many different applications and just modified accordingly.

Patrick.

I recently purchased a Boyer base plate from them for my Navigator. Here you see it installed. No major issues with it. I have a black MK III box for a Commando and it is running fine so far.

Must admit not too many miles on it because it is not registered for road use yet..

Nick, I got the bike with a Boyer box and a base plate from a Commando somehow made to fit. The Commando base plate is smaller in diameter and the PO had drilled or widened the holes in it to make it fit to the larger Navigator ignition.

I kept the black box and only ordered the right base plate. I guess at the time the bike was converted to twelve volts and the Boyer ignition there was no Lightweight base plate available.

Must have been in the early ninties.

Here is a pic with the rotor and base plate. Enough clearance.

I only had to sand down the outer diameter of the base slightly plate to make it slide easier in the ignition housing for adjustment.

Here is a pic with the rotor.

Just to complete the picture....it seems the rotor is well close to the back of the PU plate. The way I got out of this many years ago is to have the rotor taper re machined a 'tads' smaller so that the rotor sits further into the engine.

As far as the PU plate fitting within the timing cover I would like some qudos for this as I asked BB to make this plate for the Wipac ignition as oposed (another naf word miss spelt but NOT corrected as no spell checker on the forum) to the Commando/twin one. Unfortunatly I cannot remember when that was but it was some time ago. But persons stiil tried to fit the smaller twin plate. The actual circuit part is identical it is just the fibreglass plate which is bigger.

I didnât have access to a lathe so rather than trim the rotor to maintain the clearance I fitted small washers behind the plate which extended the pillars sufficiently to get the clearance, but they were fiddly little blighters to get in there!

I'll speak up for Pazon which is running fine in my Electra.

When I first fitted it I noticed there was very little clearance between the rotor (nicely made item on the Pazon) and the back of the pick-up plate. Using a fine file, I reduced the projection of the highest pins and solder blobs under the pick-up plate to increase clearance slightly. The pick-up is easy to fit and fits well.

Set up by aligning a red dot on the rotor with a small window in the pick-up plate. You need a timing disc and TDC finding tool. Easy. Started and run fine.

However, you are only likely to be +/- 3 degrees if you rely on the red dot.

I'd recommend use of a timing disc and a strobe. The extra accuracy seems to give a much better engine on the Norton Lightweight.

One feature let me down. I used only the tiny terminal block provided on the pick-up to attach the two wires. With heat and vibration the connection became unreliable, leading to misfire and then cut-out. I now solder the two wires to the alternative solder pads on the P/U. Pazon provide these pads next to the terminal block for a reason, and it seems to be a wise choice.

Easier maintenance or reliability? With an HGV tailgating you and the engine cuts out, the decision becomes easy.

Happy riding

Peter

Well that is interesting; Dan has a late model Boyer on which the points plate needed spacing and Peter has a Pazon which also required similar fettling. Sounds to me that the rotor/points plate on both of them was not specifically tailored for the Norton engine. (easy enough to make fit but surely the customer could expect better after all these years in production).

Several people have said that the Pazon operates down to lower voltages but if you read the specifications both of them claim a similar operating voltage range.

Patrick

PP. Peter, I know what you mean about being tailgated by a HGV. If you are on a Jubilee (on the A19) said HGV can not only out accelerate you but they can also out brake you. It makes you wish you were back in 1960 when a Leyland Octupus was hard pressed to get to 30mph.

Previously Nick Clarke wrote:

Thanks for all that history Alan and Ulrich, well done - clearly lots of ingenious adaptation going on over the years by you guys to get your lightweights running smoothly! Do you know if the current purpose built BB MkIV systems fit the lightweights without these base plate problems? I haven't heard any complaints about the Pazon system 6 or 12v systems which seem to fit straight from the box with the added advantage of longer wires which can be cut to fit individual requirements and safe operation down to a lower voltage.

Nick

With regard to the BB IV or III, these are only Model numbers given to the Black Box ie the ignition amplifier. The PU plate is the same in both of them. The MKIV was developed as the MKIII had issues with 'wandering' timing when the battery voltage dropped and on a Commando thus casing kick back and often a broken sprague. Hence BB developed the MKIV. So either will do on the Lightweights and I am even suspicious that early MKIII didn't have a wandering timing either?

Further on these threads I believe there was a thought that watching the strobe flash onto the 'red dot' through the plate timing hole did not see the red dot move, actualy it does move but of course only half what the crank shaft timing does.

Nick, I installed a Pazon 6v on my Jubilee recently and I noted on another post that the base plate is not a good fit. I assume the Navigator has the same size points housing as the Jubilee. The problem I had is the slots in the Pazon base plate do not align with the post bolts that hold the outer cover on. If you widen the slots to fit there may not be much 'meat' left on the base plate. You may need to fit repair-type washers, such as pop-rivet washers under the post bolts to spread the load on the base plate. Do not overtighten the post bolts or you may crack the base plate.

Make sure you have an even gap around the base plate or you may have the rotor magnet rub against the pick up studs on the base plate.

I suggest you set the advance on the rotor using a timing guage on the alternator side then fix the Pazon pick up to the cam with the red dots at 12 and 6 o'clock then fit the base plate with the dot centred in the hole in the base plate. This should give a reasonably close set up. Howver, as you will have the alternator rotor exposed it is worth checking the timing with a strobe using a point fixed on the rotor. I marked TDC and 32 degrees before TDC on my alternator rotor aginst a fixed point.

Dennis

Nick,

I apologise if you already know this but find TDC on the engine for the left cylinder (alternator side) using a probe down the plug hole. I used a dial gauge but a pencil will do just as well to determine the high point of the piston with both valves closed on the compression stroke.

You can tell which is the compression stroke if you put your finger tightly over the plug hole as you rotate the engine by hand.

Having determined TDC, attached the timing disc to the rotor stud (mine is just a press fit). Use a piece of wire attached to the head and bent downwards to act as a pointer on the disc and with the engine at TDC rotate the disc to register zero degrees against the pointer.

You can now mark the rotor at any convenient point against a fixed point on the casing (in fact I made a metal pointer that attached to the alternator stator using the stator nut at about seven o'clock to hold it in place). That is TDC marked on the rotor.

Now without disturbing the timing disc, rotate the engine backwards by hand by the desired amount against the pointer attached to the head (32 degrees in my case) and make another mark on the rotor against the same fixed point. You have now transferred marks for TDC and 32 degrees before TDC to the rotor magnet to view with the strobe.

Dennis

Ulrich supplied this information previously on how to make a pointer for the rotor for strobe timing.

http://www.aoservices.co.uk/info/Timing_Lightweight.jpg

I strobed it with the timing disc in place, mine was locked behind the rotor nut.

Anteriormente Nick Clarke escribiÃ?:

Dan, ?quÃ? tamaÃ?o de disco usaste? Solo tengo el Wassal tradicional, que es mucho mÃ?s grande que el rotor, asà que tendrÃ? que inventar un puntero y atornillarlo a uno de los orificios de los tornillos de la caja de la cadena o similar. ?Recuerdo que mencionÃ? que bajÃ? uno de Internet, lo redujo en tamaÃ?o (aprox. 7 cm de diÃ?metro segÃ?n mis medidas), lo imprimà y lo peguÃ? al rotor? Si es asÃ, ?usÃ? el puntero de Alan atornillado a uno de los pernos del estator?

Apologies for not answering your question, I must have missed it! But you seem to have done it pretty much as I did, I did indeed download a timing disc and stuck it to some stiff cardboard. (Cheapskate!) The only dif was that I used a dial gauge to find tdc, mine also started first kick! As it did this morning!

Al didnât like my washer trick, but without accurate tools to reduce the rotor I felt it was a simple solution and has worked well enough so far! When I do my Navi over the winter ill try the Pazon instead of the Boyer.

On my bike I painted narrow white lines across the rotor and stator when the engine is at the correct location, rather than a metal pointer. They show up well even on a cheap strobe. I put two bits of masking tape close to each other to get neat alignment. I think I used typing correction fluid (although permanent solvent type might not be available nowadays?).

Youâve got to love old school tippex, very useful stuff!

I managed to use the dial gauge with the head on (and in the frame) by clamping it vertically and using a long rod to reach in the head.

Dan