Wheel lacing

... thing I can see that all the spokes have been put in from the outside. They should alternate inside / outside. I would not be happy with your wheelbuilder whatever he's used to - in my experience all wheels alternate whichever part of the globe they come from. That's why you're getting that tension. It also looks as though the spokes only cross twice - I would have expected 3 times but am not familiar with the Commando pattern.

Central Wheel are normally very good and I've used them several times but I know some people have had poor experiences.

I build my own wheels - it's easy enough if you're careful and take copious photos / notes / measurements. The Vintage Motorcyclists' Workshop by Radco has details of a jig which makes life even easier.

I am not expert, but did you buy spokes that were all identical, particularly the bend near the hub? You should be able to see on the wheel whether there are two types of bend, in which case I expect they were made to sit half on inside , half outside.

    My Commando rear has alternate in/out from hub. They cross once very close to hub, and then again 2/3 of way out to rim, approx.  That wheel has been to the top of Norway and back on it’s first proper trip, so it works well!!

One spoke in the photo looks bent where it passes the adjoining spoke. Have a closer look, if the spokes are stressed over each other then it is clearly not correct. 

That just looks so wrong...Even bicycles don't do that...Spokes from the same side of a flange surely never cross each other ?

You may be the Human Guinea Pig on this one !

I have three old Norton wheels, they all pass twice and are INSIDE OUTSIDE. There is inside and outside spokes as well.

By the way I have an 18"steel rim, straight needs chroming, does any one want it for free?

Whoever has laced up this wheel has tried to copy the British lacing pattern for an early Norton Commando but has ended up with a dogs dinner. I can see quite a few spokes that are threaded in from the wrong side. bent, crossed and rubbing other spokes.  The attachments show the early Commando wheel spoking pattern. You do not win a prize for spotting the missing spoke.

With the oblique picture it's not clear but the pattern looks conventional. But I've never seen all spokes from one side. The cross over means that the head of each alternate spoke is being pulled sideways from the rim.   If that means they bend under load, the fatigue life will be smaller. I suspect it might be safe, but won't last long.  Just looked at web pics of Laverda (random Italian bike) and their spoking looks just like Phil's first picture. Not the one with missing spokes...

I have only built 6 wheels  ,and I would not be happy with that.   I have had issues with Central in the past  supplying rims that could not be spoked  in the same pattern as  Bracebridge St used. I doubt it would collapse  with  light use  for a limited period.  But you are never going to be happy with it. 

The rim and spokes will probably be fine if correctly assembled. Central Wheel will give you the correct offset dimensions.

Even Central Wheel are not without issues, they move away from the OEM setup but do not tell you. The only reason I can find for the changes are to make life easier for them not the end user. Changing from 4 sets of 10 spokes to 2 sets of 20 spokes is their normal trick. 

The spoke patterns make so little difference to how the wheel behaves that the pattern actually used has always been chosen largely for the cost/convenience of manufacture.

I feel sorry for you Graham!  All that trouble and expense and you'll have to rebuild the wheel again!  What an odd way to lace a wheel.  Spokes should not bend over each other at any cost and should not chafe.  The chap you used should have looked at a photo first!  It's a good tip for any of us who need a wheel rebuild as we now know some of the pitfalls that we might not have known before.  Thanks for that.  The definition of "Live and learn" eh?  LOL!

I once spent some time looking into cycle wheel building and did my own several times.  There are books about it, full of weird theories. Clearly it attracts obsessive types who feel a desperate need to re-invent the wheel.  He probably thought he had invented yet another better wheel.

For bicycles there is an amazing number of alternatives.  The only real difference is in appearance, and unnecessary complications like different spoke lengths.  But in your case he unnecessarily increased the bending stresses in half the spokes  which will shorten their fatigue life.  He's probably out there still building...

I realise it's a little while since this thread was started but thought there's no harm in adding a comment.  The wheel in Grahams photo appears to have been correctly laced in that the spokes cross twice. The mistake lies in the fact that as already pointed out all spokes are on the inside of the hub flange. The spokes within a wheel are not the same, there are two sets, one inner set, one outer set,  the difference being the bend. When laid side by side it will be seen that half the spokes have a longer bend. The spokes with the longer bend as I remember fit outside the flange and the shorter bend inside.   I appreciate that a great many members will have this knowledge, but also that some might not and to get the spokes mixed up on your first wheel build would lead to a disappointing end result.

Hey, guys.

I have a new dual-disk hub for my Commando from a well-known supplier, but for the life of me I can’t get this thing laced up.  All the spokes enter from the outside and there’s no countersink on the inside to accommodate the bent end of the spoke.  Please refer to the attached photos.

I bought the hub, spokes, & rim as a set from the same supplier, and all forty spokes are identical which suggests that they aren’t intended to alternate sides.  This is to say that the bent end of all the spokes are bent to the same angle, approximately 90 degrees.  Generally the outer spoke are bent to an acute angle whilst the inner spokes bear an obtuse angle.

I have tried everything I can imagine and spent countless hours searching the internet without any luck.

Any bright ideas?

Thanks!

-Robert

It looks to me like the bent ends of the spokes are incorrect for this hub as they are not seating correctly.

I would be speaking to the supplier who provided these spokes to ask them.

You are sure you're using the correct lacing pattern?

If all spokes are fitted from the same side then they will not clear each other where they cross and will be bent, however slightly. Plus those countersinks look far too big and I would have expected a chamfer on the opposite sides to accommodate the bends in the spokes. May I ask which well-known supplier you used?

is not professional...  I have built a number of wheels for bicycles. If someone brought me a wheel looking like that I would advise them to correct this.  It's rather critical on a motorbike to have good spoking.

The spokes need to alternate inner / outer in each flange.  For motorbikes, the bend at the head is set at different angles, so your wheel builder will have re-set this angle.  On machine-made bicycle wheels, a driving pair are inner one side and outer on the other.  Hand-made bicycle wheels are usually (but some like to do it differently....) outers for driving and inners for over-run.  On a front wheel, outers for braking load. It makes for a stronger more stable wheel.

Just to be clear, an 'outer' is a spoke where the spoke itself is outside the flange, not referring the head of the spoke.

Thanks, Paul.

I agree with your assessment.  I also agree with your nomenclature; I used the term "place the spokes from the outside" and "threaded through the hub from the inside" when referring to inside and outside spokes" respectively.

-Robert

The spokes should alternate head then tail. This helps them to cross other spokes without touching them. 

Properly spoked wheels do not have spokes that touch,  spokes with bends in them or nipples that are not inline with the respective spoke.

See attachment of early disc-braked Commando........enlarge to get better view of the spoking  pattern, which is correct for that type of hub..

on that Commando is revealing.   I see that the braking spokes are outer on the left, and inner on the right.  I regard it as best practice to make a matched pair, so braking spokes on both sides should be outers. Is that an original Norton lacing on your wheel, Philip?

This is a brochure illustration, so presumably as the factory intended.

On both Phil and Richard's pictures, the outer spokes leave the hub anticlockwise viewed from both sides, so they are antisymmetric (not mirror images).  It would have made lacing wheels in the factory quicker.  And less likely there would be the odd reject through lack of concentration.

If anything I doubt if even Norton knew what they intended, on MK3 brochures you will see two different lacing patterns for the front, there was third lacing pattern but it seems this never made it into the finished bikes likewise the later MK3 front hub design with paired spoke holes. There are also MK3's out there with the front laced as per the rear lacing pattern. Paul is right in his comments, the idea being is that there is less chance of distortion on the rim though I suspect in practice is does not make much difference. 

The original post would only be used on a trick lacing set up where the spokes can be kept short and no option of a better lacing pattern could be used due to insufficient gap between the hub flanges and the rim, but it is far from ideal when a better lacing pattern can be used. 

Some will notice that many classics use a lacing pattern the same as some push bikes, OK for the the fronts but realistically not that great for the motorcycle rear as it needs spoke pairs, one to drive and one to brake and that is where there is a trade off, as they all need to sustain tension from applied power and keep the wheel strong and in shape, when the rear rim is braked as on push bike, then the same spoke pair will do both functions leaving the other pair to provide a strong wheel.

The angle of the bend of the spoke is not so much whether it is inner or outer but also determined by the rim piercing position, flange angle and the angle of the drilling in the flange. 

The twin disc hub above, generally the lacing for this is straight forward as the rim centre line should be sat half way between the hub flanges meaning the spoke angles are the same out to the rim. This also dictates that the piercings must be either on the centre line of the rim (not ideal)  or offset the same distance from the centre line on each side. 

Also, what Phil H has spotted is a common problem, if you see a Norton out and about with bent spokes near the nipples please let the owner know. I have seen this twice in two years at motorcycle meets and 3 times at work from customer queries. Usually the rim is to blame as the rim is pierced in the wrong direction. Touching spokes, on the MK3 they get close and as well as the offset this is another reason to get the rim as far away as possible from the final offset position prior to tensioning. 

After speaking with Roger at RGM and Richard & Glyn at Central Wheel Components (CWC), it was determined that due to some incorrect labeling, I was sent the wrong spokes and rim.  There's nothing like having two out of three components incorrect to ensure the bloody thing won't work!

After speaking to Roger about the issue I rang the guys at CWC to discuss the issue with Richard.  Richard then shared the photos I e-mailed him with one of their master wheel builders, Glyn, who immediately noticed the issue.  Without any prodding from me, Richard then contacted Roger to discuss the problem and how to resolve it.  Roger dispatched an identical hub to the lads at CWC so they could bend up some fresh spokes and punch out another rim.  The hub is now at the CWC works in Birmingham, so I expect to see the correct bits stateside in a week or so.

Despite the confusion, I have nothing but highest praise for all the parties involved.  An innocent mistake was made and instead of pointing fingers, everyone got to work to develop an excellent solution.  I am extremely pleased with how this gone.

On another note, the folks at CWC advised that it is acceptable to have countersinks on one side of the hub only, but they did agree that the spokes need to alternate from the inside and the outside, so they will be bending the spokes to accommodate this.

Once I get the proper bits, I'll lace it up and share an update with the rest of the group.

All the best!
 

-Robert