Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Hello Dennis,

If you have a big fat spark on both cylinders why are giving up getting it running. Obviously something else is wrong and electronic ignition will not by itself cure that . Are you sure you are timing it on the correct cylinder on the firing stroke? Try swopping over the plug leads and it might fire up first time. Are you sure it is getting fuel ?.

I have never fitted a Pazon ignition so can't help on this but it just might immediately cure your problem as I think electronic ignitions work on the wasted spark principle - the standard points do not, so they have to have the correct plug to the correct cylinder.

Patrick

By the way the level plug plug hole on the primary chain case is the one very low down with a screwdriver headed plug.

I agree if you have a fat spark all you need is compression, fuel and a spark at the right time. My jubilee is a really easy starter and was even with the timing way to far advanced!

Dan

Dennis,

I get the feeling that you are not very familiar with points ignition so best to start from scratch again. The ignition timing does not have to be super accurate just to get the engine started. You mention 2 degrees but this figure only refers to getting each cylinder as close as possible of each other. I am pretty sure that the cam will only fit in one position. The shaft is a taper fit into the camshaft so only place it into position to start and do not tighten up the bolt just yet.

The easiest way of timing is using the static method;

Set the engine with the pistons on TDC and the valves in the timing side cylinder head both closed, and rotate the engine backwards 10 deg. as indicated on a degree plate attached to the mainshaft. With the engine in this position rotate the cam in a clockwise direction until the topmost pair of points just commence to open. Fit and tighten securing bolt and washer. Now set the points gap to .012".

Now when you have it running you can check the timing with a strobe light and ensure the timing is advancing properly as you rev the engine. From memory the Jubilee timing is 32 deg. fully advanced. But double check this when you have it running.

Patrick

Have you made sure that it's firing on the right stroke? Take the valve covers off, you want it to fire when the valves are shut. If it's the wrong way round, swap the HT leads or the low tension leads. Probably better to swap the low tension leads.

Paul

Pazon 6V system?? Several questions here, the BB twin cylinder electronic ignitions, and Pazon for that matter use 2X 6V coils in series with a 12V supply. So a 6V supply might need 2X 3V coils? (funny thing is I actually have some of these) but they are NOT your usual stock item. So do they use 2X 6V coils in series or a fancy coil of some sort? Then there is the 6V, as the battery charge regulation is somewhat crude on the 6V system (Wipac and Lucas) the battery voltage can easily rise high enough to damage 6V ignitions. As pointed out by Boyer B, so have Pazon cured this issue with regard to 6V ignitions? Could be a nest of worms here.

But as said above if you have a spark then going electronic won't be an answer.

Previously Alan Osborn wrote:

Pazon 6V system?? Several questions here, the BB twin cylinder electronic ignitions, and Pazon for that matter use 2X 6V coils in series with a 12V supply. So a 6V supply might need 2X 3V coils? (funny thing is I actually have some of these) but they are NOT your usual stock item. So do they use 2X 6V coils in series or a fancy coil of some sort? Then there is the 6V, as the battery charge regulation is somewhat crude on the 6V system (Wipac and Lucas) the battery voltage can easily rise high enough to damage 6V ignitions. As pointed out by Boyer B, so have Pazon cured this issue with regard to 6V ignitions? Could be a nest of worms here.

But as said above if you have a spark then going electronic won't be an answer.

I agree totally with Alan here. I have the original 6v wiring loom and points. I had a slight intermittant untracable fault on my lighting circuit and lights either worked or not with fiddling. No matter I am using the bike during the day. When I used the bike at night everything was fine until the intermittant fault occured on the move my lights went super bright and blew all of them. If this had occured with electronic ignition I am sure it would not have liked it. I will only use electronic ignition when I go 12volt ,the wiring loom is simpler,( less prone to faults) and better regulation.

GRAHAM

Previously dennis_thompson wrote:

Just got my 1964 Jubilee together with oil and petrol tank fitted. I see a fat spark on both cylinders but I cannot for the life of me get it to fire. I timed the ignition with a timing disc and I thought I was spot on - clearly not.

In frustration I have bought a new Pazon 6v electronic ignition system that should be delivered by the weekend.

Is there anything to watch out for when fitting the Pazon?

I have a new, modern rectifier, new battery, new coils and new wiring loom.

Many thanks,

Dennis

Hi Dennis,

The Pazon is easy to fit but securing the electronics box is not that easy.

On my Navigator, I used a pad of industrial, self adhesive "velcro" and attached the box into the pressed steel rear spine component. Make sure that the cables from the box are downward facing. (UK weather) Although this allows for future easy removal, if you get it right, you will probably never have to remove it.

Best wishes

George Smart.

Hi Dennis,

I've just noticed your earlier posting about wiring the existing 6V coils in series. You also mentioned a weak spark. Now you say the system is dead.

Now I am not an auto electrician (as Al O might rightly point out) so I could be totally wrong but I think your wiring is for a 12V system. So did you convert to 12V ? Maybe you only have a flat 6V battery that can't provide enough power to fire the 12V coil.

Patrick.

Hi Dennis,

It was the reference to "6V coils wired in series" that made me wonder. When you wire two 6V batteries in series you get a 12v battery; hence I expected that two 6V coils wired in series would equal a 12V coil.- which doesn't sound compatible with a 6v electric supply. Anyway you have followed the Pazon wiring instructions and I would expect that Pazon will stand by a warranty claim without any quibbles.

My only experience with a faulty electronic ignition was a Boyer Bransden unit a good few years ago on a previous Jubilee. The soldering on the points plate failed. I was seriously impressed with the BB back-up services as I received a replacement points plate by return post. I do hope that you can report the same level of service from Pazon. It restores your faith in human nature when people do the honourable thing.

Good luck.

Patrick

Question-Although I have never done it I would have thought that looking at the 'red dot' ie the rotor through the timing plate should see the advance working? As it happens if there is no advance, with electronic ignition and magnetic type pickup you end up with a fully retarded ignition which makes the engine extreamly (More rubbish spelling with no spell checker) flat with regard to reving up and running.

More information please.

'Out of curiosity I wondered if I could see the red dot through the hole with the engine running using a strobe and it worked. Furthermore, when I revved the engine the dot still stayed centred in the hole indicating that auto-advance is working'

'I would have thought that looking at the 'red dot' ie the rotor through the timing plate should see the advance working'

Unless it's me who's got the wrong end of the stick (happens often I must admit) it seems that there may be a bit of barking up the wrong tree going on here; with electronic ignition, and unlike the iron-age points/condenser set up, there's no physical movement involved in varying the spark timing so, whereas with the spring-loaded auto advance/retard set up a strobe should show the timing mark moving over variations in the lower end of the rev range, with an electronic set up the timing variation is carried out by electronic jiggery-pokery and, in the case of the Pazon red dot, it remains exactly where you set it when you installed the stuff so your flashing strobe light will merely illuminate it every time, no matter how you rev the engine.

The strobe will only give an accurate timing reading when used on the alternator rotor.

Effectively the red dot is only a convenient reference point for the first basic ignition setting. If the red dot moves around then you have 'problems' - the rotor after all is meant to be bolted securely to the camshaft

Patrick

Previously howard_thompson wrote:

'Out of curiosity I wondered if I could see the red dot through the hole with the engine running using a strobe and it worked. Furthermore, when I revved the engine the dot still stayed centred in the hole indicating that auto-advance is working'

'I would have thought that looking at the 'red dot' ie the rotor through the timing plate should see the advance working'

Unless it's me who's got the wrong end of the stick (happens often I must admit) it seems that there may be a bit of barking up the wrong tree going on here; with electronic ignition, and unlike the iron-age points/condenser set up, there's no physical movement involved in varying the spark timing so, whereas with the spring-loaded auto advance/retard set up a strobe should show the timing mark moving over variations in the lower end of the rev range, with an electronic set up the timing variation is carried out by electronic jiggery-pokery and, in the case of the Pazon red dot, it remains exactly where you set it when you installed the stuff so your flashing strobe light will merely illuminate it every time, no matter how you rev the engine.

Information above is not quite right. Observing the RED DOT through the PU hole should see it move with the advance but at half the crankshaft degrees. The advance is not carried out by 'jiggery-pokery', but by the small pulse generated by the flying magnets past the two little coils being bigger when it goes quicker (ie reved up) so it gets to a predetermined trigger point sooner ie the spark is advanced.

'The advance is .... carried out... by the small pulse generated by the flying magnets past the two little coils being bigger when it goes quicker'

Like I said, electronic jiggery-pokery.

However, thanks to your rather more erudite explanation, my poor befuddled brain has now grasped the concept of half-'movement' of the red dot, though of course it doesn't actually move in relation to its position on the camshaft, it's just that the strobe light comes on at a slightly different time in relation to the circular motion of the dot and its the strobe effect that seems to make it move. Ah! the dawning of realisation! Thank you.