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misfiring Atlas

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My Atlas is running on BN8ES plugs. I don't think it likes them. Misfires intermittently until the engine is hot and then when I give it some welly the misfire eventually clears and she runs great, and when I say great I mean it. When she's running good this ol' gal has got some horses in there! It has a Thorspark electronic ignition fitted into the KF2 mag with a coil that comes with the kit.

Kicks over first time from cold but needs half throttle to start when its warm. Always starts at least second kick though, and ticks over no problem. It's just the misfiring that's irking me. I have to do a mile or two and then open her up to get it to clear and then running smoothly. Maybe needs hotter running plugs - or colder, can't remember which way it goes?

I haven't had the head off but I looked inside the plug holes with a borescope. It has slightly domed pistons which I reckon are 8.1:1. They're not flat heads and definitely not the standard dish type ones. The spec for an Atlas is BP8ES, the protruding type plug, which would be fine for dished pistons but I don't like the idea of that due to the higher compression pistons possibly hitting them. I might try Iridium plugs and see if that makes any difference. The ignition timing is set to 30 btdc which it seems to work best on this particular bike.

After a fast 20 mile run today I took the plugs out. Left side is black and sooty. Right side a bit better but still too dark for my liking. The needles are already set at the top notch so that's as weak as it'll go needle wise. Maybe I'll have to start experimenting with smaller jets. Or perhaps the float levels. I fitted new viton float needles a couple weeks ago because fuel was overflowing from the right side carb. I suppose I could try setting the maximum float level a bit lower but I'm not sure how to do that in a 389 Monobloc carb? Also, how do I sync the float levels on twin carbs so theyre both at the same level? 

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Those pistons are more than 8 to 1 , probably nearer 10 to 1, ignition should be 28 or a degree or 2 less .. Try a grade hotter plug . But not without backing off the timing first.

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The ignoition timing is NOT the issue here. It could be the grade of plugs. You would need ones that are more for akin for town running for a missfire within a few miles from cold. The sooty plugs would be richness which would help cold starting. And rich running could easily be down to worn needle jets as the needles are already as low as poss.

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Commando pistons are the usual replacements in the Atlas ,these are flat top. You have domed pistons ,so the ratio is going to be well over 9 to 1 ,  Check what is written about ignition timing with Commando pistons in an Atlas. And think on.

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Thanks for all the responses. Very useful.

So, 9 to 1 pistons eh? This bike is an exciting ride with lively acceleration so that's probably got something to do with it. The gear ratios are quite low due to the smaller sidecar engine sprocket but I kinda like it that way. I can quickly get it into fourth and keep it there most of the time and it'll pull nicely from around 40 up to 80mph no problem, i.e. it's a very torquey motor. It's buzzing at 80 but I don't want any more speed than that really.

The misfiring feels like a plug problem to me. The B8's are probably too cold running for this engine. Also, the carbs may well be worn, or rather the needles possibly are, like Alan said. It's got 27,000 miles on the clock (all of them done over 50 years ago) so a pair of new needles is on the cards.

The handling is incredible, even with those old untouched Girling rear shocks and Roadholder forks. I fitted new Avon Roadriders and I can really throw it into corners. The John Tickle TLS brake has immense stopping power even with half worn shoes which gives me a bit more confidence to let it rip. The reverse cone mega just adds to the fun. It braps, tweets and sometimes pops on the overrun. 

All in all, not a bad bike this, just needs a bit of tweaking to keep it running properly.     

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When the Atlas was first produced it was sold with two sets of plugs. One set for running-in and town work and another set for open road riding.

One set were KLG FE 75 or Champion N5 or equivalent.

The second set being KLG 80 or 100 or Champion N4 or equivalent.

In reply to by philip_hannam1

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Cheers Phil,

I'm obviously gonna have to play around with the plugs because of the higher compression pistons. Standard spec Atlas plugs probably won't work so well.

I've ordered a slightly hotter set of plugs (BR7ES) to see how that works. 

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I never said worn needles....The NEEDLE JET wears far qicker than the needles. The Concentric wears 3 jets before the needle needs changing!

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Higher than std compression pistons would normally need a colder plug. But i dont think we have the full picture on your bike . If the plugs are fouling then its probably oil or fuel and a hotter plug may make starting and warm up easier but risk burning your pistons once running hard. 

I've fitted new needles which has made it feel cleaner somehow and more responsive on the throttle. I haven't yet changed the jets (which may well be worn) but for now the new needles have improved it. Whether the plugs foul up again will be determined on the next long rideout.

The bike is still on BN8ES NGK plugs but I've ordered a pair of hotter running BN7ES plugs which I'll fit when they arrive.

My main goal is to get the plugs burning properly with a nice brown colour all the time, not dark or sooty. I'm going to have to play around with it a bit to do that I think.

I'm starting to understand the character of the engine now. It's a tough old bird. I'll mainly be using it for no more than 50 to 100 mile max rideouts and I'll be riding it hard most of the time so I'd assume hotter running plugs will work better. We'll see .......

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This has always been an area of confusion. If the plug runs HOT it is usualy for town usage where the heat of the plug causes the engine to run cool by taking the heat away.

Go faster-racing plugs- are for track usage and run cooler as they cool the hot engine.

So hot running plugs for towns and cooler running.

Cold running plugs for 'hotter' engines used on the track to keep them cool. But are they hot plugs?

Champion, NGK and KLG (and more) have ranges of plugs, but the heat numbers often go in the reverse direction than you think and to the other make of plug. Guaranteed to confuse.

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It might be stating the obvious, but the coloured pages in our old manuals showing the different plug colours only applied to leaded petrol.  They have been irrelevant (or incorrect) for a very long time now.  Modern plugs have a wider heat range than in the old days.  How many people nowadays start a cold engine on hot ('soft') plugs and change to cooler running ('hard') plugs once it's properly warmed up and ready for a hard run?

I'm with David on this one. 

I have not had a plug chop since we got rid of leaded petrol in Australia that the plug was anything other than Very White, white, white with black on the outer circle bit or lastly black all over.

Next time someone has a plug that is tan coloured would you photograph it and post it on this forum.

Thanks

Don Anson. 

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There is a very interesting article here:-

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig101.htm

That I found when doing some research on plugs a few years ago.

If you don't want to read the complete article, please read this extract.

The most important feature of a spark plug (and maybe the only important feature) is the heat range, and that may not be the same optimum for every engine, maybe even different for engines of the same spec and build parameters. In reality you may have to experiment a little to figure out what works best for you. If the plug runs cold it can misfire or collect oil and foul out. If the plug runs hot it can cause pre-ignition or detonation which can damage internal engine parts or even physical failure of the plug itself. When in doubt you should start with a cooler plug, and if it works well stop worrying. If it fouls out try a hotter plug. Black deposits on the plug usually mean it's too cool. Stark white color or a cracked insulator around the tip would mean it's too hot. Good operation makes the ceramic tip insulator an even light tan color, possibly just a little darker on one side because of variations in temperature in different parts of the combustion chamber. A badly worn engine might leave black deposits on the plugs regardless.

Yep, that article about sums it up.

The engine in this Atlas isn't standard - high compression pistons and smaller engine sprocket and who knows what else has been done to it? (I haven't had it apart so that's all I know right now) What I DO know is it goes like the clappers and it fouls plugs within 20 miles.

Doesn't matter what type of fuel it's burning, the plugs need to be a light brown after a good thrash at full throttle and if they stay that way then the mixture and the type of plug being used is probably correct.

I've got a feeling that with slightly hotter running plugs and the new needles I fitted it'll be ok. If not, I'll play around with the jets and the plugs till it is, maybe even try a couple of Iridium's. 

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I recently did a plug chop on my 99.  Troubled by signs of weak mixture  just off tickover but still suffering sooty plugs , I took my bike to a long steep  and twisty hill in kent .A run down and up to warm up and a set of clean but used plugs fitted .The throttle was taped and marked up to indicate the fueling phases .  The very  fast run up was a bit too exciting ,the 99 was not fazed by the hill at all and using both sides of the road on the footrests  I frightened myself at 80 mph still accelerating in third and had to run in top to avoid going any faster . The ignition was cut at speed and the plugs checked. .The plugs showed good colour at all positions . After much playing with carb settings I concluded that carb body wear was causing the odd POP and found  that  an ancient  Amal needle and a too weak pilot setting would give reasonably clean plugs. If i switched from Synergy Plus non eth to lower grade  E5 plugs ran cleaner , The additives in premium fuels  could be making sooty running  or perhaps the weaker eth fuel runs cleaner . I am still fidling with it and no , I dont like eth in my tank !.

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Needle jets wear out faster than the needles.

 



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