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clutch query by new member

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Hi all I'm new to NOC and to Norton ownership. I purchased a 59 model 50 last year. I did a couple of hundred miles and found that the clutch adjustment at the amc box end was at its limit and still had 1/2 inch of play at the lever end! I've got some (limited) history with bike. The chap I brought it from was supposedly mechanically savvy (my experience is limited and is confined to jap bikes). He knew the previous owner who'd struggled with clutch adjustment. From the history I've got it seems that 10k miles ago it had a new '1/8 shorter clutch push rod fitted'. Then in new ownership and 2000 miles ago it had a 'new 6mm clutch push rod'. It also had:
clutch 'cable shortened'
clutch felt 
dominator cush rubbers
lighter springs
single sided friction plate x1
friction plate x3
drive plate x4
dominator spider
new 7/8 lever.

there Is so much free play that I was rather hoping that it might be the wrong cable. Consequently I ordered a new cable only to find that the last owner had indeed shortened it. The new cable has far too much play in it to the point that the lever has little resistance at all - just free play. I've looked at the cable end bottom lever and it seems to be in the correct position- pic attached
I've yet to strip the plates out and don't really want to before taking advice.
what puzzles me is why would he shorten the cable and still have so much free play (and especially as he's replaced so much of the clutch)
Any suggestions as to how I go about getting this clutch working again would be greatly appreciated.
Tony

 

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The one thing that springs to mind is the clutch nut may have come loose? This has happened on my 56 model 50 and others and the symptom is similar.
If it comes off altogether then the end result is potentially damaging as the clutch drum wears into the primary case or drops off altogether. 
You'll have to check by removing the primary case cover. 
 

In reply to by stephen_crowder

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Thanks Stephen - the primary is off. The adjuster nut is on. Do you mean the main axle nut beneath the plates etc?

Sorry. Been a bit busy. 
It was the main nut holding the clutch hub on I was most worried about. 
It needs to be very tight or better still loctite it in place. 
They do shake loose and can cause a lot of damage. 
If you've still got play then providing you are sure there is capable of full movement you can make a new push rod easily out of silver steel. 
Harden it by warming to bright red on the end and quench in water. Do each end separately. 
Then gently warm the ends again to about 200 degrees and re quench or you can pop in your oven on a baking tray at 230 degrees C for an hour then quench it in water. 
Silver steel is readily available and is cheap. 

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Where are you?  If you are stuck, joining your local branch should turn up someone to assist.
Otherwise all you can do is assemble methodically following the manual exactly.  You aren't likely to succeed without the book.

If it is a cable issue and only that, you can get one made up.  The price will be much the same.
Or solder the nipple on at a different length.

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.. is that the new pushrod wasn't hardened and is rapidly wearing away. If the mainshaft nut has come loose you would be able to move the whole clutch assembly in and out.

Thanks Ian - the clutch hub assembly can be moved in and out by I suspect 1/8 inch or slightly more so I suspect Stephen's point about it being loose might be right. I'm going to strip out the the hub and have a look. Out of curiosity- should there be any in and out play at all? If not then will it always be a loose clutch nut at fault?

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be any play on the clutch centre but the outer may move slightly on the rollers that it spins on when the clutch is disengaged. Is your play with the clutch assembled and tightened down? If so, would suspect what Stephen suggested.

Thanks Ian, I tightened it down this pm. I probably got a full turn or so on the nut. Before I tightened it and the drum and primary chain would move slightly with the lever action. Tightening has almost eliminated that. There is a very (very) slight movement in the outer basket. I've a better action but still more play than needed and at the extreme of adjustment. Oh and some witness marks on the inside of the primary Witness marks

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If you tighten it and there is still too much play It is possible that the push rod is too short,  I assume its an AMC type box, if so make sure that the little lever in the gearbox that the cable attaches to is properly located and pulled back when you adjust the other end on the clutch pressure plate.  Once you get your head around them they are a pretty simple affair - and unlike the BSA clutches, the rollers don't fall out unless you are taking the clutch completely apart. 

Dan

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If the pushrod appears to be too short then cut it in half and insert a ball bearing between the two sections. The diameter size needed is around 5 to 5.5mm.
Another thought..........If the clutch has been built up with new clutch plates then there is a possibility that these replacement are considerably thicker than the old plates. Hence making the stack far taller. I've seen cheapo replacement driver plates with 3mm thick fibre pads. 

In reply to by philip_hannam1

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Thanks Phillip that sounds ingenious. However what if it makes the rod too long? I've no idea how it should be. I suppose shortening the cable might be my best way forward as at least I can adjust to suit.

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it needs to be close to the right length for the set up you actually have ( so not necessarily the 'standard' length, depending on clutch plates combined height, for example) THEN you can get the cable the right length.

In reply to by jan_nelder

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Thanks Jan, out of curiosity- how would I know it's the right length for my set up? At present it's 2mm proud of the inner drum Clutch rod protruding though inner hubwhen the arm (the opposite end of the rod) makes contact. See picture

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Tony,
 My ES2 is a 1956 with a lay down gearbox and is very different from yours but,
I was under the impression that the change to the AMC gearbox had an adjuster on the clutch cover. The round plate that screws onto those 3  quarter inch studs in your photo.  Could be this needs screwing in ?
Or and this is a big guess, the previous owner put a ball bearing in the adjuster and it has fallen out when you pulled it apart?
As I said my clutch is very different and I will stand to be corrected on any of the ideas I raised.

Don Anson
Melbourne  

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From your first post it seems to me that you are missing a plate .. try 4 friction 4 plain and 1 combined plate under the pressure plate. should remove the slack !.

Thanks Robert, I'm not sure on the amount it should have but surely adding would only increase the height and make the anticipated length of travel (for the existing push rod) even greater?

What I didn't include, in my initial post, is that the previous owner also purchased 2 sets of 6mm cork inserts Part no A2/395. I could see cork sections  in the initial plate that also forms the toothed sprocket. Would those influence stack height etc?

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Assuming you have the right number of plates (If my memory serves me the M50 has a pair less than the ES2?) My gut feeling is that you need to work on the push rod length, new plates and cork inserts will alter the stack height. I assume your clutch has the aluminium pressure plate with adjuster screw and lock nut in the middle? Have you tried screwing it in as far as it will go - if necessary without the lock nut and see if you can get a working clutch - if you can you'll get an idea of how much short the rod is (As it happens RGM sell various length rods, they list the length and they are not expensive, if necessary buy one that's too long and cut it to size). If its just a few millimeters then a ball bearing may give you the length you need, but you'll need to cut the rod to be able to insert it, just remember that if you want to get it out again then you may have to lean the bike over so it rolls out!  If your clutch has the steel pressure plate then that removes any option of adjustment so you'll need to get an aluminium one with the adjuster, they are easy enough to find - I might even have one somewhere! But note, I think there are different aluminium pressure plates to add to the mix!  Andover Norton has (some?) of them listed 

Dan 

https://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/shop/search.htm?kw=Clutch+rod&st=k&search.x=23&search.y=17

Pressure plateHi Dan, I've screwed the adjuster, right up, on the pressure plate and I've got a clutch action with a 1/4 of play. What I haven't got is any adjustment on the gearbox casing end as that's out to its limit. I ve had a look the rgm listings and the most are for slightly smaller or the same. My plan is to cut the existing rod in half and add a ball bearing (or two?) and then see if this gives me some adjustment back at the gearbox end. A couple of questions - my rod and those that are listed refer to them being case hardened. I've no way of doing that - will that be ok?
Also, my ball bearings are 1/4 inch (head race). Are 1/4 going to be ok as I'm mindful that they're slightly larger than 6mm?
I've added a picture of the type of pressure plate I have.

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You could layout the plates and photograph the (exploded assembly) .  A clutch i recently striipped had plain surfaces against plain surfaces !  plenty of metal filings being spread about.

Hi Robert I'm guessing they're ok as they appeared to be the right way around the correct ones. The stack hasn't really changed in size since I first got the bike. Things have got better since I tightened the clutch nut. What I'm chasing now is the potential for future adjustment on the adjuster (on gearbox side)

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Clutches are probably the most used and abused part . A heavy , draggy or slippy clutch takes away any pleasure in riding . Well worth the time you spend on it , get it right and it will be envied . 

Hi Robert I couldn't agree more. My first experience of a poor clutch was on my first bike - '76 Suzuki Gt250. I went from one side of London to the other with a fast disappearing clutch and no A-Z. That experience has never left me!

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... if you have an ordinary butane type blowlamp that will suffice. Get the end of the rod - grind / file flat first - a dull red then quench in engine oil - used oil is fine. This isn't as deep as proper case hardening but will suffice. I use silver steel for this job as it hardens nicely.

Thanks Ian, I shall give it a go but one question - the present one has a slight circular concave end (presumably for the ball bearing to rest on). Would it matter if I just had a flat end as I think that would difficult (for me) to accomplish.

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Could the concave end indicate that previous owner added a ball bearing which indented the end, and your problem is simply that it's gone astray?  A concave end is not 'correct' because Norton didn't make them that way.

Hi David, my parts book suggests that a ball bearing is correct. I don't think it's displaced as I can feel the lever make contact with it and then making contact with the rod. The rod was purchased from RGM so doubt if it's an original part. Perhaps produced to exceed OE quality?

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I have to say that most of the cables I bought in the past never fitted very well, so I make my own now. I made a simple tool out of 2 pieces of 1" angle to "birds nest" the end. My levers also have adjusters which makes life easier or .....is there an adjuster at your gearbox end?  I think there should be, mine do anyway!  On line pics see most bike with them. 
Dan 

Gear box

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...info provided by Tony, my overriding thought here is to go back to square one with the clutch itself first of all. The current composition of plates, with replacement corks etc. is most likely incorrect, too tall as the witness marks testify and must surely be part of the issue. Maybe not, but lots of things point to this and I'd be surprised if it turned out to be correct. Achieving a correct configuration of clutch plates and checking stack height against factory or otherwise reliable data would be my first step, buying a new set might be the way to go but swotting up on what should be in there is key to getting this part right. Then find data for pushrod length too and check, but see how the current rod works with the revitalised clutch first and if things are still odd then play with rod length. Lastly, cables. And it would be worth checking the handlebar clutch lever against others if you can in case the distance between pivot and nipple are wrong.  I don't disagree with any of the advice given above, just throwing in my thoughts as to how I would approach this problem.

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Personally I think you are over thinking it!! Either lengthen the pushrod, add an adjuster at the gearbox end/or shorten the cable. Then go and enjoy it!!

If you want someone to check your clutch and gearbox Dave Coates is your man. 

Dan 

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Just a thought that you should check out the cable. Dommi's and singles had a long cable adjuster on the  cable where it screws in to the gearbox. This was deleted on the Commando so have you a Commando cable fitted which has a much shorter cable adjuster fitted on the clutch lever?

 



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