Hello
My 1962 650ss with a 99 barrel finally started the other day but sadly needed a bike starter to get her running.
The diagnosis is very low compression on right hand cylinder possibly due to head gasket issues. Obviously I didn't do a good enough job annealing it. The left cylinder was at 5.1 bar. On the plus side the bike did run after 40 years so I am pretty chuffed.
So next I'll be running through some further tests to sort out the source of the problem, but before I start what is a good level of compression for this type of engine/barrel combo. What kind of figures should I be aiming for at this stage?
Many thanks
Kit
How are you doing the test? …
How are you doing the test? I get more like 10 bar. The maximum possible is higher than the compression ratio because of the temperature rise by rapid compression. Full throttle, screw-in type gauge. Preferably warm engine so piston rings are realistically oiled.
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David is right 5.1 barG is…
David is right 5.1 barG is about 80 psi, which is so low we doubt that it's the result of a proper compression test on a running engine.
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Thanks guys. The test was…
Thanks guys. The test was done cold as the bike is not starting easily at present. Test done using a workshop cylinder pressure tester and full throttle. If I need twice my current pressure then I clearly have issues!!
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That's sad! The usual next…
That's sad! The usual next step is a splash of oil down the plug hole to seal the rings and try again.
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The seats are hardened and…
The seats are hardened and not likely to have suffered. And guides affect oil consumption but not engine compression.
Are you certain the throttle slides are fully open? Both plugs out. Gauge fitted in one hole. Throttle wide open and kick several times until the reading is stable. Repeat for the other side. Oil in the bores must help, especially if the engine has not run.
And don't forget to check valve clearances. A sticky valve will ruin the test. Put some oil through the rocker caps onto valve stems and make sure they are working properly.
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A Dominator ...
....I rebuilt a short while ago, in a standard compression test cold, showed 115 psi on both cylinders.
This was with only a few km on the engine.
Adding a little thin oil in the plug hole raised it to 145 psi.
It does have high compression pistons.
I'm at an altitude of 1000 m, so at sea level it will be higher.
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Don't forget.....
.....that the pressure measured by a pressure gauge bears no relation to the stated compression ratio. The stated ratio is simply a theoretical number from the volumes of the chamber at bottom and top pf the piston.
The inlet valve isn't closed at BDC, it'll close at about 30d after. So it's still open until the piston is some way up the barrel.
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This is all really useful. I…
This is all really useful. I'll have a chance to test this out next week. Thanks
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Though the figure is low, if…
Though the figure is low, if nothing untoward is found then it is more important that both sides measure close to each other.
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An update
Just a quick update
Much reading of the heavy twins compendium later, the head came off and I took the following actions as recommended in the guide.
- A new set of shorter head bolts was obtained from RGM
- The copper gasket was properly re-annealed
- A smear of Welseal was applied to the gasket and allowed to rest for 36 hours
- The correct head tightening sequence was followed and torqued down as per manual
The result is a much better set of compression readings. Throttle full open and engine kicked over until no further increase was noted.
- 105 psi on the LH
- 135 psi on the RH
Valves seem to be happy and pushrods are located correctly, but I'm worried about the discrepancy in the readings. Should I be? If so what might be causing this??
I'm not seeing how it could be the piston rings on the LH cylinder. I've used a feeler gauge and could not get between the bore and the rings. I guess my next step will be to put oil in the LH and see if we can get up to the RH pressures..... but other then seeing if it runs ok what are my options??
Thanks in advance
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Ring gap
Hi Kit,
How are you checking your rings?
Normal process is with rings off the piston, placed in the bore ('squared up' with the piston) and measuring the gap between the ends with a feeler gauge. Doing this at several heights of the bore will also give a clue to how worn the bore is.
Regards, George
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Hi George - I haven't had…
Hi George - I haven't had the barrel off as yet - long story - but if the oil in the bores trick brings the pressure up significantly then it may have to happen.
I've gone from 'it just needs a quick fettle' to 9 months of fixing one thing then another. I am getting to know the old girl though.
I shall report back once the oil tests have been done.....
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Ok. Oil in the LH bore…
Ok. Oil in the LH bore produced a quite impressive 185 psi up from 105 psi.
So it's going to be the rings isn't it? Talk me out of it.
*Insert expletives here*
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You have the head off, its…
You have the head off, its only a few nuts and the barrels will be off so you can measure/inspect them properly, along with the cam and followers. If the engine has been run without air filters the bores/pistons/rings will most likely be worn. Get the bores measured properly with a bore comparitor, set with a micrometer. This will tell you how oval and tapered the bores are. Shoving the rings down the bore and measuring the gap gives you an idea of how worn the barrel is, just nowhere near accurate enough. Then there is the ring groove on the piston, how much vertical play is there between the ring and its groove, If you can move the ring up and down in its groove the piston is worn out (should be no more than a couple of thou between the ring and its groove sides) More than this will promote oil burning/lack of compression. New Hepolites have a ring groove clearance of less than 1 1/2 thou Fit an air filter on rebuild otherwise all your hard work will be undone in a few thousand or less miles
Be aware, just fitting a new set of rings will probably not totally cure the problem and not for long. How much of a step is there at the top of the bores? if you can feel a step (where the top ring is at the highest point) , you will need a stepped top ring set (sets of rings sold with a step in the top ring so the new ring doesn't hit the worn step, that's if they are available) otherwise if they aren't available you have to remove the step in the bore. If its like that it is easier to get the barrel bored and honed and new pistons
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Yup. You are right. Having…
Yup. You are right. Having come this far it's just not worth skipping this next bit. Ok. I'm off to do that. Thanks for confirming next steps.
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Can of Worms!
Ok - Cylinder off and can of worms has been well and truly opened...... see pictures.
It seems that the oil test for compression does not lie.
Forgive me for doubting you Service Notes. Truly the font of knowledge.
Back to the worms..... The gap in the piston rings is .026 not the .010 specified and the pistons themselves have seen better days. These were .040 650 SS pistons but in a 99 barrel. The Oil rings simply snapped off when I tried to get them out so I'll need to replace these and probably find new pistons. Like I said - can of expensive worms.
Next stop - assess and measure the bores and see if we can move up to .060 I guess, unless anyone has any bright ideas.....
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Fit a decent air filter on…
Fit a decent air filter on rebuild. Those pistons have suffered from ingesting dust and grit.
I am amazed that people run their bikes without any air filters, but hey ho, they must like reboring their engines.
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Some photos when the head was off recently. Spigoted head and barrel. That's the old copper and asbestos gasket which was replaced with new copper gasket from Andover.