Tappets tip detached

Hi Ian,

Whilst the head was off after this kind of failure, I would be keen to replace all and do any other work that is required. It would always be in the back of your mind - what if another fails! Might be worth checking the guides / what is left of valve stem as well to try and determine why it failed.

Hi Ian,

This should not have happened, in a rebuilt engine, after only 3,500 miles (or even 100,000!). I would complain, bitterly, to Norvil about the crap quality. I suspect they will give little sympathy, but, at least you can express your disgust. You do not say if you have removed the head. If the tappet has broken, with luck, the valve will have remained closed, and, there may be no other damage to the engine. I would definitely replace all all four, and, unless they prove sympathetic, NOT from Norvil!

The tappets are normally re-used in an engine rebuild, unless they are badly worn or damaged. Today's tappet tips on the Andover Norton Genuine tappets have like a "hat" that goes into the hollow part of the tappet. Hence with these tappets, even if the solder between tappet tip and steme gives up, the tip stays in place as the "hat" locates it sideways.

I suspect the offending tappet was an original one from production times where this happened occasionally. On these the stellite tip was flat and just soldered to the tappet body. If the fault could not be seen 3.500 miles ago- which is well possible- Les Emery is not at fault.

I must admit I do not know of "pirate" tappets for Nortons, due to handling only Andover Norton parts, though I have seen them for Triumphs. Those were totally below contempt, not being stellite tipped and therefore prone to wearing out in no time. If similar offerings are in the market for Nortons I suspect they won't last, either.

On second thought you might not mean the tappet, but the tappet adjuster. There was a batch of adjusters that had that tendency at one time, due to some freak mistake in the hardening process I believe, but those adjusters should by now all be long gone.

Alright Ian,

you don't say wether you have complained to norvil about the component failure. I suspect despite the low mileage you will be told the part and service are out of their 12 month warranty period. As John says, these components should last tens of thousands of miles.

Joe Seifert mentions a 'freak mistake', I would call this poor quality control. I have had the misfortune to suffer from quite a few freak mistakes with parts in the last 6 years, ashave other members. When are the likes of Andover Norton going toshow some faith in their products and back up the alleged high quality partsthey sell with a gaurantee which reflects this quality, or are they doing this already?

Simon,

We (Andover Norton) warrant all our products for the customary period- I believe a year, but will have to check Phil, with our company secrretary. However, there are several points to keep in mind:

- First and foremost, is it one of our (Andover Norton Genuine Factory) parts? There is a lot of pirate spares out there, often sold by dealers, many of them self-proclaimed "Norton Specialists", who, alongside sourcing cheaper parts whereever possible, are also customers of ours. Some even take out our printed labels and use their own, similar labels with partly their, partly our parts to disguise what is what.The dealers who stick to quality spares are a select few and I could name all (5? 6?) of them, worldwide.

- Secondly, a lot of parts are damaged by the mechanic on installation- either because he was careless, or because he did not know the first thing about motorcycle mechanics, let alone Nortons. A lot of workshop jobs are simply beyond the abilities and equipment of the average home mechanic. Many motorcycle workshops are no better, and should, in my opinion, leave motorcycles well alone. I have seen endless examples of things that went wrong in the home workshops as well as merchanical blunders by so-called "specialists" in my 35 years in the trade. A visit to my friend Rudi Kolano's workshop- the last hope for many German customers by the time they have had their bikes wrecked by other "specialists"- is an educational experience. Sometimes I want to laugh and cry at the same time.

- Thirdly, where men work mistakes are being made. I have seen the occasional desaster in my five years of ownership of Andover Norton. They were few, but they did happen, and more often than not were found out very quickly and the parts scrapped. For several months now we have therefore put a formal quality control check of all incoming goods into place that replaced the previous, traditional, but somewhat erratic system.I have said it before, and will repeat the statement: When I was part-owner of a BMW motorcycle agency for five years in my life I saw my share of BMW quality desasters. This was pre-internet days, so most of these never made it into public view. These days, quality desasters are generally called recall programmes..... they happen to everybody in the industry, all the time. With new vehicles the update can be done by the workshop without the customer knowing during a routine service. Unfortunately, not an option for Norton spares!

Simon, we are happy to look into your problems. I have constant product feedback through my friend Rudi, and a very experienced and trustworthy dealer in the UK. Rudi is a master toolmaker who works on Nortons, road and race, every day, and, frankly, I doubt Andover Norton has many product quality problems.

If you have a specific query, Nick and Keith at Andover Norton will look into it. I should be only mildly surprised if it turned out the parts you had problems with weren't ours. That is the casewith an overwhelming percentage of the "sub-standard parts" we get back from customers.

Regards,Joe

Joe,

I now onlybuy spares for my bike from Mick Hemmings, TMS and RGM in that order of preference, as I'm aware that some other dealers will attempt to pass on other parts. When requiredI specifically ask for Genuine Andover Norton parts and make sure they arrive in sealed plastic bags with the AN card inside.

Recently I returned via TMS a set of pushrods to AN andspoke to Nick Hopkins who gave me less than satisfactory answers. He also inferred thatAN's policy does not include informing the end userwhy parts had failed.

Blaming fittersfor component failure is a weak argument in the case of pushrods and tappet adjusters to name only two components. These parts are highly stressed in use andtherefore should withstand less than sympathetic installation, although obviously not desirable. I agree with you regarding some of the other 'specialists',they are nothing more than shop keepers.

I still do not understand why Andover Norton parts have such a limited guarantee of only 12 months from date of purchase. Aminimum guarantee of25,000 miles or 5 years wouldback up your claims regarding quality control and suitability of components that your company produce,

Simon.

Previously wrote: Aminimum guarantee of25,000 miles or 5 years wouldback up your claims ....

Simon,

you don't get that with a new bike so expecting it for parts being fitted, in many cases by enthusiastic amateurs, to 40 yr old plus machines is optimistic to say the least.

I have had more hassles with parts - availability, quality and price - for my modern Ducati than i do with Norton parts.

Iain.

Dear Iain,

Thanks, you saved me the answer.

Joe

Had the same thing happen a few years ago. Brand new AN parts bought through Mick H. and used with PW3 cam. A couple of weeks later my previously reliable auto cam chain adjuster also failed, probably co-incidence but I feel it may have taken an abnormalhammering for half aminute or so when running at 4000 rpm with 100 thou gap. AN saw the part, were very reserved (as would be expected) and despite one further mail/call I never did hear any more. At £18 the pair I didn't pursue it and bought some RGM parts (to some on here a dodgy proposition for pattern parts) and they've been fine for 12,000 miles +. Heres a pic.or two........

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and this was the result after a slow 50 mile run home with tappet set as tight as I dared.....

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Iâve only had one major problem with a genuine Norton Andover spare part. A few years ago I fitted brand new genuine cam followers with a brand new pattern cam shaft. I had the barrels off a few months later and found the new cam lobes had pitted.

Pete Lovell (Pete Lovell Developments) investigated the issue with Bob Reynolds (?) from Norton. A cam follower was found to be slightly out of tolerance and was believed to have been a contributing factor to the failure. (Other factors were that I had installed the followers with minimal clearance, run in using 15W/50 oil and the cam bush had never been fully seated in the factory).

Pete and Bob were excellent and really went the extra mile. Bob supplied a genuine Norton replacement cam free of charge and paid for the followers to be refaced. I was obviously very happy with the outcome and impressed with the service from both parties.

Thanks chaps

Jeff

Ian,

we had a few failures a while ago. Tappet adjusters came from the supplier who had made them for us for many years. They were made from the correct, specified material, but a with few out of the batch (not the whole batch, only a freak few, mind) the hardening went wrong somewhere along the line. We had about a dozen adjuster failures altogether, not a single one I know of resulted in any serious damage, as it was so audible the sensible customers noticed something was wrong straight away. We did go into the failure in depth, pinpointing the problem, and put all remaining adjusters from that batch into quarantine straight away, until we knew what to look for and how to sort the good ones from the bad ones. Only the "square headed" ones were affected, our "allen type" ones never were.

Haven't had that problem before or since, but repeating my statement about my BMW experiences above- it happens to everybody who manufactures/has manufactured parts occasionally, no matter what inspection arrangements they have. If and when it happens it is down to the supplier to sort the problem out with the customer.

Joe

I may have been a bit optimistic with a 5 year gaurantee. Triumph and Honda warranty on new bikes is unlimited mileage for two years.

A 12 month warranty onengine components is not an indication of the products suitability asI wouldn't expect an enginepart to be unfitfor purpose if it had sat on a dealers shelf for 12 months. A realistic minimum mileage guarantee would give me more confidence in Andover Norton's products. I take your point regarding incompetence of the person rebuilding an engine but we're not all idiots.

Unfortunately I've had too many bad experiences, and now, where possible, source from speacialist component manufacturers eg Kibblewhite valves and guides, Thunder Engineering con-rods, Steve Maney push rods etc or servicable used original Norton components and new old stock. I'm aware of the Mk3 cams.

I've said before some of AN's parts would appear to be perfectly ok, butit's become a lottery and I've lost confidence,

Simon.

Never had any problems with AN parts I have had direct from them, and with Joe now in charge, I'm of the opinion if he would fit these parts to his own bikes then I'm quite happy to fit them to mine. Parts failure due to material defects does and can happen. I work in the weapon trade and have had numerous defects on various weapons over the years. A part for a 20mm canon kept failing, and when queried why, the current manufacturer said that the original maker of the part, used a very high grade steel back in the 70's and 80's. The new company refused to use it as the minimum quantity a foundry would make for them was 8T, the part weighs just a few grams.

Modern quality control throughout the wider industry and the now careful eyes at AN assure me that the parts are the best quality at the right price to keep my Norton running safely for a long time.

Many thanks Joe.

Had just the same problem years ago with my 850 Interstate. I replaced the cam followers (tappets) with an old set from a 99. Worked perfectly. What a cheapskate I am.

Gordon.

Previously wrote:

Never had any problems with AN parts I have had direct from them, and with Joe now in charge, I'm of the opinion if he would fit these parts to his own bikes then I'm quite happy to fit them to mine. Parts failure due to material defects does and can happen. I work in the weapon trade and have had numerous defects on various weapons over the years. A part for a 20mm canon kept failing, and when queried why, the current manufacturer said that the original maker of the part, used a very high grade steel back in the 70's and 80's. The new company refused to use it as the minimum quantity a foundry would make for them was 8T, the part weighs just a few grams.

Modern quality control throughout the wider industry and the now careful eyes at AN assure me that the parts are the best quality at the right price to keep my Norton running safely for a long time.

Many thanks Joe.

I wonder what your annual mileage is Ashley and whatengine revs you achieve during acceleration?Do you use the bike to it's full potential or potter about at 70mph for example,

Simon.

Due to employment, it's hard to put many miles on it - hard to ride it around the ocean, and I have and had other bikes as well. As for riding style, I ride out with Jap bikes and other Nortons. It has been in my ownership for 17 years now and, has been ridden all in all seasons. It gets abused, if it breaks, I fix it is my motto. The only major things I have replaced is the cam, I found that it ran out of steam at 110mph (by the original MKIII Smiths speedo) following a PW3 fitted Commando, cam lobes were shot. Gearbox rebuild at 27K due to kickstart hitting leg when pulling away, and big end shells when the cam was being replaced. I don't warm it up - just cane it from cold as well. I do run full synthetic and have done for years. As formaintenance, I check the oil, tyre pressures and isolastics and fittings on regular basis. I am uncertain as to what had been done to the engine prior to my ownership, but it looks like it had some engineering work done to it. Considering, It gets used on an irregular basis, gets caned when it does, I would have thought I would suffer more mechanical breakdowns - guess I must be just lucky.

Considering there are many race built engines that have far more power output (though with many mods, almost twice the MKIII) the stock unit should be very durable if built correctly. Component failure can fall into, incorrect fitting / use, poorly manufactured (counterfeit) part or unpredictable failure of item whether genuine part or copy. Component reliability and Risk Failure Analysis, was something I was very heavily involved with during my Submariner days, where mechanical reliability was critical for obvious reasons, and replacing equipment can be real pain when you have to get it in and out of a tight spot.

Many will tell you, my bikes get abused - not polished.

Due to employment, it's hard to put many miles on it - hard to ride it around the ocean, and I have and had other bikes as well. As for riding style, I ride out with Jap bikes and other Nortons. It has been in my ownership for 17 years now and, has been ridden all in all seasons. It gets abused, if it breaks, I fix it is my motto. The only major things I have replaced is the cam, I found that it ran out of steam at 110mph (by the original MKIII Smiths speedo) following a PW3 fitted Commando, cam lobes were shot. Gearbox rebuild at 27K due to kickstart hitting leg when pulling away, and big end shells when the cam was being replaced. I don't warm it up - just cane it from cold as well. I do run full synthetic and have done for years. As formaintenance, I check the oil, tyre pressures and isolastics and fittings on regular basis. I am uncertain as to what had been done to the engine prior to my ownership, but it looks like it had some engineering work done to it. Considering, It gets used on an irregular basis, gets caned when it does, I would have thought I would suffer more mechanical breakdowns - guess I must be just lucky.

Considering there are many race built engines that have far more power output (though with many mods, almost twice the MKIII) the stock unit should be very durable if built correctly. Component failure can fall into, incorrect fitting / use, poorly manufactured (counterfeit) part or unpredictable failure of item whether genuine part or copy. Component reliability and Risk Failure Analysis, was something I was very heavily involved with during my Submariner days, where mechanical reliability was critical for obvious reasons, and replacing equipment can be real pain when you have to get it in and out of a tight spot.

Many will tell you, my bikes get abused - not polished.

Well, last summer 40 miles from home,had the tip of an adjuster shear just up on the first thread and drop down after a rebuid of the top end using parts from Mick Hemmings. Maybe 1000 miles ridden. Luckilythe sheared partwas hiding around the bottom of the valve spring and could be retrieved.( Another one banished from a rogue batch!!). Ordered adusters with allen key tops and hopefully no problems.