Hi all,
This might be a bit late, but just a warning to anyone who is considering the Inter ( lot 492 ) in the Bonhams auction at the Stafford show this week-end. The frame is from a sv/ohv model which is substantially different and there are several other parts that are not correct. This will make the catalogue estimate way above what the bike is worth and could lead to legal ramifications.
Here we go again
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Buyer beware
Race bikes get bent ?
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Richard...you seem very sure…
Richard...you seem very sure. There are several changes but I wonder how we can know why?
There is an added curved frame tube in the rear triangle. It's lower end is fixed where the rear footrest mount belongs.
The saddle support lug is too far forward and has been compensated for by means of small brackets.
The forks appear not to be Inter. The cable adjuster is on the brake backplate instead of being close to the top right leg. They don't appear to be narrow and parallel enough either.
But...has anyone ever seen two identical Inters? If George Cohen had been involved, he could easily have cheerfully made all sorts of changes. If the owner wanted an uprated front brake, that would override his desire to keep a useless lug. It looks like it was built to go and not show (no silencer, no number plate). Non standard steering damper (and nowhere for the original type...the tank top is threaded so perhaps the early Andre type couls fit...but it wouldn't be as good as the one that's there.
Or are we talking down the value in order to win the auction? I hope we don't let nitpicking prevent us from welcoming the new owner to the NOC. Whatever it's genetic origins, it's a super looking machine.
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More than that.
Hi Alan,
Yes as you say, but this bike is more than that. Looking at the parts it looks like it has been built up from what parts were available. This is not a bad thing and gives more enthusiasts a chance of getting a bike they want. The problem is the high prices that are paid and the authenticity, you wouldn't want to buy a machine for far more than what it's worth. We all need transparency for the good of everyone.
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Nit-picking or value for money ?
Hi David,
I didn't think you thought I was that shallow. I have no personal interest in this bike as I have more than enough bikes already, so won't be bidding especially at Bonhams premiums. I posted this purely for the benefit of prospective owners who may not know enough information to make a decision on spending so much money. For the guide price you could buy 3 post-war singles.
As for nit-picking, few of my bikes are 100% original, but honesty is the prime requesit. And just to support the above, please see the attached photo of what used to be my ride to work 1948 Model 18. Don't tell anyone but it even has BSA Bantam parts fitted.
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If you are going to pay good…
If you are going to pay good money for a bike then let it be a good matching numbers and close to as it was when it left the factory. If you want a bitza then pay bitza prices, it will no doubt be just as good on the road but why pay for provenance that does not exist except for in the mind of the auctioneer on commission.
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Inters- Matching Numbers
Did Norton Internationals get built with matching numbers?
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Not matching numbers before…
Not matching numbers before WW2.
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Matching numbers in this…
Matching numbers in this case means what the factory records say and both frame and engine numbers match the records.
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Matching numbers
My Model 30 has an engine number less than 5 away from this one and from the records the frame number for mine is 817XX. The Bonham's bike's frame number would be close to this as well.
As they say on line, the bike is built up from a collection of parts. Price should reflect this. It still, however, a running International Norton despite the deviation from 1937 specs as mentioned previously.
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Inter register?
I was told a couple of years ago by a friend in our branch that the chap who started the Inter registration did so so he could find the gaps in existing bikes/engine numbers. He had a bitza of an inter built and then declared his inter bitza was number xxxxx.
Given the value a genuine inter commands it is not surprising that some people stoop to such levels.
Auction houses can and do spout rubbish about what they auction. They are a business to make a profit. I recently bought some cuckoo clocks at auction and in the description it said they had 'graduated dials' Utter and total rubbish, just words to fill out the catalogue.
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I'm sorry I didn't mean to…
I'm sorry I didn't mean to be rude, Peter. I think the Bonhams posting is quite clear, although it did change (I think)
I am surprised that sellers don't obtain a V5C. That should present no trouble but would certainly make such a bike more attractive to me. There's always the niggling doubt that it might end up on Q plate.
I imagine it's coming up this afternoon? I don't seem to be able to find auction results.
I certainly don't claim mine to be as it left the factory!
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Inter result.
Hi All,
This is the full catalogue descripion including the sale price, just hope the new owner is not too disappointed.
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The Spring Sale / 1937 Norton 490cc Model 30 International Racing Motorcycle Frame no. 30 71953 Engine no. 78494
LOT 492
1937 Norton 490cc Model 30 International Racing Motorcycle
Registration no. not registered Frame no. 30 71953 Engine no. 78494
Amended
THE SPRING SALE - THE INTERNATIONAL CLASSIC MOTORCYCLE SHOW
23 April 2022, 10:00 BST
Stafford, Staffordshire County Showground
Sold for £18,400 inc. premium
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Motor Cycles (UK)
1937 Norton 490cc Model 30 International Racing Motorcycle
Registration no. not registered
Frame no. 30 71953
Engine no. 78494
• Fully rebuilt in 2017
• Engine rebuilt by Bernie Allen
• Last run at Donington Park in August 2019.
One of the most charismatic model names in motorcycling history, 'International' was first used by Norton for its top-of-the-range sports roadster in 1932. Following its successful Senior TT-winning debut in 1927, the overhead-camshaft Norton had enjoyed mixed fortunes in the Isle of Man, and when the engine's designer, Walter Moore, left to join NSU, Arthur Carroll was charged with carrying out an extensive redesign. First seen in the works racers in 1930, the new motor borrowed features from the successful KTT Velocette, contriving to look very different from its predecessor while remaining unmistakably Norton in execution. The Carroll engine retained the classic 79x100mm bore/stroke dimensions and shaft-and-bevels cam drive of the Moore unit but shifted the magneto drive to the right-hand end of the crankshaft where it was enclosed in a distinctive timing case. The new overhead-cam racer was not an immediate success - 1930 was Rudge's year in the Isle of Man - but came good in 1931 when works rider Tim Hunt kick-started a four-year period of Norton TT domination by winning both the Junior and Senior events. Towards the end of 1930, the Carroll-type engine was introduced on the CS and CJ road models, and in 1932 these were joined by a new top-of-the-range sports roadster - the International or 'Inter' - that bore a closer resemblance to the works racers and was equally at home on the track.
Based on the works bikes and intended primarily for racing, the International could nevertheless be ordered with refinements such as lights and a kickstarter-equipped gearbox. By the time production halted in 1939 it was being built with a four-speed foot-change 'box and plunger rear suspension (the 'Garden Gate' frame), reappearing after the war in similar guise save for the adoption of the hydraulically-damped Roadholder front fork, replacing the pre-war girder. The Inter remained fundamentally unchanged until 1953 when it gained the race-developed Featherbed frame, an all-alloy engine, and the 'laid down' gearbox.
The vendor advises us that this International was assembled from a collection of parts. Notable features include a post-war Manx-type double-overhead-camshaft cylinder head; telescopic steering damper; Smiths tachometer; modern racing tyres; twin-leading-shoe front brake; and modified footrests/controls. The machine was fully rebuilt in 2017, the engine (which runs on methanol) being overhauled by Bernie Allen with a new big-end bearing and high-compression piston, while the gearbox was rebuilt by Bernie at the same time. The Norton was last run at Donington Park in August 2019.
Offered without key
Footnotes
All lots are sold 'as is/where is' and Bidders must satisfy themselves as to the provenance, condition, age, completeness and originality prior to bidding
Saleroom notices
The machine is offered with some extensive SCR Classics invoices and some technical info/drawings.
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The value of an item is what…
The value of an item is what someone is prepared to pay for it. I'd have thought that the price was reasonable for a DOHC engined rigid. But none of us knows what people are actually paying for the very small numbers of similar machines that turn up. All we know is what we might be prepared to pay. For a few years at least, it ( and other Inters) will be saleable at something not far from that price. I doubt if any of my small collection will raise much (if anything) more than they've cost me.. but that's not why I acquired them in the first place.
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Auction descriptions need to…
Auction descriptions need to be reasonably correct. Sadly motorcycles don't get the same provenance check by the auction houses that artwork gets which can take many months prior to the auction. In the past few years AN have had auction houses contact us regarding a few machines where there has been problems post sale, which is strange as most have their marque specialists. Thankfully, all but one case, the descriptions were correct, the other query could not be supplied with supporting evidence.
Maybe auction houses should state originality and provenance unknown where doubt exists, with a corresponding estimate.
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Parts identification, FYI.
Hi all,
To support my previous comments I thought I would list the parts used to build this bike.
The frame is from a post-war Model 18 or 16H/Big4, and the forks are from a 1939 bike of the same type. The front wheel looks like a very early tele fork model and the rear could be of a similar period, both with 19" rims. The twin leading shoe brake is a one-off fitted in a standard 7" hub. I'm fairly sure the petrol tank is a british made replica made to post-war standard specification, and the oil tank may also be too, but to early '30s wrap around pattern. Some of the detailed work looks a bit dodgy and fasteners could do with replacing with period pattern parts and more care with brackets etc.
The engine bottom half and cambox are probably the only parts of the bike that date from 1937. The barrel and head are from a circa 1952 DOHC Manx but fitted with the standard alloy SOHC cambox as a DOHC cambox will not fit in this frame. Note the alloy block between the crankcase and barrel made to blend in with the cases and counteract the shorter barrel. The carb and magneto look O.K. for 1937, but not necessarily from that year. The racing gearbox is probably post-war as pre-war they had the ratios stamped on the back.
I'm not knocking any of the above specification as I am planning building an engine along the same lines, but as said earlier, just tell it straight and it won't be a problem.
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So DOHC head but SOHC cams? …
So DOHC head but SOHC cams? That's a bit ....
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They went wrong when they called it a 37 Inter...
There are very few '37 items on this build. I like it, but its not right that its listed as a '37.
Not even ancillary items like levers (Air, Adv, Brake, Clutch, Foot brake) foot pegs, mudguards, stays, clutch, plus all the major components Richard identified.
I can imagine its a good track day special but doubt it would be compliant in classic events.
Makes me feel better about my own machine..
Cheers
Jon
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Ashley... The description..
Only 20% of the description written for this lot is relevant to the product on sale the rest is general history on that model of machine... and of course the note on the "Key".... i.e. offered without...
Its a sign that I'm getting as old as my grandad when he told me "only believe half of what you see and none of what you read lad".
Jon
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inter 37
Hello
I see that there are people which know many about inters
Iam making on my inter it is same stile as discusion here. frame is from H18 and so on
but Iam not from GB and some parts mising
can someone foto your original lever for choke and for timing magneto?
were used only amal levers or other makers?
and original twist grip was?
Thanks
Tomas Tesar
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Here you are Thomas
Air and advance levers. Can’t help with the twist grip mine has changed many times .
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Tomas...I hope an expert…
Tomas...I hope an expert will give you the correct details but it probably depends on the year. I've been looking through my collection of Inter pictures and probably more than half now have later ball ended levers because they are required for racing. The type of brake or clutch lever with ignition and mixture controls fitted to the handlebar clamp seems not to be available but levers are available from various places. They certainly weren't made by Norton, but bought in probably from Amal.
Early 30's bikes had 1" diameter bars. Later they went to 3/4" bars because rubber anti-vibration sleeves were added inside the handlebar clamp. Not easy to find replacement parts for front forks, or bars with the correct bracket fixed in place.
There's not much point in trying to be totally original as far as I can see. Get it running!
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Camboxes and levers.
Hi David,
To answer your question of the cambox on the sale bike, the head and barrel are from an early featherbed Manx, but the cambox is the standard Inter alloy type. This will fit, but you might have to adjust the height to get the best contact with valve and rocker. You cannot fit a DOHC cambox to the earlier SOHC head due to the different valve angle as it is not possible to get the pushers and valve to contact correctly. The DOHC garden-gate Manx frame has a very large bend in the top tube to clear the cambox and the earlier frames will not have enough clearance to take the DOHC engine. Jon has a DOHC frame on his machine.
Tomas,
The picture Jon has posted shows the Bowden mag and air levers fitted to the racing specification Inters from 1936 onwards. These are not the best quality and look like they come from a grass motor-mower, but they were original equipment. The brake and clutch levers should also be Bowden and are the straight blade type, but as David says these are not allowed for racing today. Ken MacIntosh from New Zealand makes 7/8" (22.2mm) diameter replicas of these parts, but just the air and mag levers cost around Eu.300+ per pair. The standard road specification Inters used Amal levers and controls the same as the other Norton models. The throttle twist-grip would also be Amal and the pre-war ones would be chrome plated brass. If you try to find original parts, this could take a long time, so as David says get it going and then look for the original parts later.
P.S. Not an expert but have picked up some info after 49 years of ownership.
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Thanks for interesting…
Thanks for interesting insights, Richard.
Incidentally...I assume they used those Bowden levers to save weight. They became fanatical about weight saving for racing. And played mind games...like painting the first race bike alloy wheel rims black to make them look like ordinary (heavier) steel.
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I thought ?
Hello,
I have no problem with bitsas, especially if it keeps an old bike on the road and the owner gets enjoyment from it, but I don't like the thought of someone paying over the odds for something that isn't what it seems.
My initial thought on this bike is cautious as I thought the frame numbers on singles were on the left side of the tank mounting lug under the nose of the tank . . not on the front engine mount lug, or are Inters different ?
Just saying !
Malcolm.
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How many parts may be…
How many parts may be changed before a bike becomes a Bitza? There's a lot of examples of grandfather's axes out here.
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Another bitza
I see that the forthcoming H. J. Pugh auction has another Es2 fitted with a 1947 International engine.
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Thanks Richard. I don't know what Inter owners used to do with their rolling chassis but that sums up oh-so-many machines.